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Thread: Interesting discussion with De/Vision Management

  1. #81


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    one dollar ? my bands got two :-)
    but in a long term, bands will get less and less money, because there are not so many cd's sold. this causes also that record companies don't have so much money for new bands.

    you can support bands on different ways:
    buying there cd's
    visit their concerts
    buy there merchandise (mostly this money goes direct to the band)
    ask your radiostation or dj -> request the band
    copy just one song (not a complete cd) for friends / play them when you get visited
    talk good about the band with other people

    - - -
    a cd which is copyprotected is for your CD player only
    a vinyl 12inch is for your record player.
    why do you request that cds must be playable on your jukebox ? what was with the music that you had on vinyl ?

    - - -
    the main thing that should happened is that people understand that MUSIC have a VALUE. (art is not for free)

  2. #82


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    Andererseits, soll der Produzent nachdenklich werden, ob man die Freiheit des Käufers, herausgebend geschützt der Platte zu begrenzen braucht. Warum ist, kaufend die Platte, der Zuhörer erzwungen, ihre Häuser und nicht zu hören kann die geliebte Disk bei De/Vision in der Auto hören?

  3. #83


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    Originally posted by lorenz macke
    i just know it from the wolfsheim release in germany (who just got a gold record):

    this cd is copyprotected too
    and many people said:
    oh ¤¤¤¤,
    you can't copy it for me
    so i have to buy it.

    )
    I don't think that copy protection played a big role in last Wolfsheim CD distribution.

    The single "Kein Zurück" reached Top 5 in charts. The video reached top 5 also. And no wonder why the album reached Top 5 of the album charts also. Great album, worth to buy. And I don't think people answer the question "Why are you buying the Wolfsheim CD?" - "Because I can't copy it"

    In comparing with Camouflage. The latest CD is also copy protected, even singles "Me and You" are copy protected. And people knows and remember Camouflage from 80s. They are more famous (in my opinion), as Wolfsheim. Wolfsheim is more alternative. But charts position of single, video and album is not high as Wolfsheim's position. Maybe the promotion was different.

    the main thing that should happened is that people understand that MUSIC have a VALUE. (art is not for free)
    But the art should NOT be ONLY for money.

  4. #84


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    Originally posted by Nevernever
    But the art should NOT be ONLY for money.
    Excellent statement Nevernever.
    Also continueing Lorenz' train of arguements, itd be great to remeber one saying by someone i can't remember which reads that *why should i buy a book if there is public library right around the corner?*

  5. #85


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    *why should i buy a book if there is public library right around the corner?*[/b][/QUOTE]

    good example, but you should know:
    it is legal that a library offer this book for lending

    it is not legal that people offer on ftp's, p2p or whereever.

    >I don't think that copy protection played a big role in last Wolfsheim CD distribution.

    correct

    >...Camouflage from 80s. They are more famous (in my opinion), as Wolfsheim.

    thats you opinion , but fact is that wolfsheim sells many more records than camouflage. last wolfsheim cd sold 250.000 copies, last camouflage maximum 20.000 copies.

    camouflage said: our sales in the 80ies and now are not enough for leaving our normal jobs. wolfsheim have enough money trough their music since many years.

    concerning the 80ies you are right: many people remember camouflage from that time, so it's quite difficlult to say which band have a bigger standing.

    charts are relative, sometimes you are on number 1 with 20. 000 sales, sometimes with 50.000sales.

    >But the art should NOT be ONLY for money.

    art can be for free
    some ARTists need money for making art.
    art is a creative process
    and a (creative) process have a value.

    many bands (de/v, wolfsheim, project pitchfork, mesh, vnv) make music as their full time job , they have no other income.

    you get payed for your work, artist should also be payed for their work.

  6. #86


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    About VNV, Ronan said: "We don't need any CD protection. Because we have so many die hard fans, if they buy CDs (and they will buy CDs), that's already enough for us". That is the right way for a band to get the money from fans.

    Creative process is OK. But for the people is more interesting the result of creation. If someone is writing the album about 5 years, and the album is totally boring. It's not p2p fault

  7. #87


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    Originally posted by Nevernever
    About VNV, Ronan said: "We don't need any CD protection. Because we have so many die hard fans, if they buy CDs (and they will buy CDs), that's already enough for us". That is the right way for a band to get the money from fans.

    Creative process is OK. But for the people is more interesting the result of creation. If someone is writing the album about 5 years, and the album is totally boring. It's not p2p fault
    ronan told me this too, they have many die hard fans, but there are more and more people who also get vnv for free.

    if a band needs 5 years for a cd and/or the cd is totaly boaring then it COULD be p2p fault because
    p2p -> less money for bands -> less money for production (equipment & professional help) and not enough time for music because bands have to work beside making music.

    i guess in 2 years you will have enough examples for the last sentence that i just wrote.

  8. #88


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    It looks like a war against DAT recorders and cassete decks. Actually cassete decks (with two cassetes) are created to COPY the music. And the result, they are still alive and not illegal. It will the same with p2p services (just my opinion).

  9. #89


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    dat player and recorders sometimes detect a "used signal".
    tape copies are not a big problem in west-europe and north-america. the main problem is the digital copy (cloning).

    during a tape to tape copy you lost quality, it takes also a while to copy them.

    the european and germany goverment is talking about the digital copy, not about the analog-copy.

  10. #90


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    a cd which is copyprotected is for your CD player only
    a vinyl 12inch is for your record player.
    why do you request that cds must be playable on your jukebox ? what was with the music that you had on vinyl ?
    Back in the days of vinyl, we didn't have computers. At least not computers that were able to play anything but "beep-beep-beep". Listening to music in specialized equipment was the only way.

    Things are very different now - we have been used to doing everything on our computers and it all happens instantly - we buy things online, talk to our friends...I even have a service from my bank so I can do all the transfers etc. and even buy shares right from my home. I have a computer with good speakers and a CD-ROM player - why must I also buy a separate CD player and speakers for listening to albums? Firstly, that's expensive and unnecessary, also the room that I have is very small, I don't even have room for both stereo equipment and my computer and things will be even worse when I start at university.
    What about those who have portable MP3 players and want to copy their CDs to it? I often travel by bus or train and it's great to have everything in a small MP3 playe rather than having to carry around 20 albums in a backpack.

    Record players are outdated and awkward and I think they are on the way out.
    If I wanted to share an album over the internet, copy protection does not stop me from simply connecting a stereo's output into the Input of my soundcard and saving the songs on my computer. The only way to make a CD 100% copy protected would be to make CDs with only silence on them. If it's possible to listen to the music, it will also be possible to copy it.

    Telling the listeners that they can only listen to the CDs in their record players is like telling the artists that they can not use computers in their music production.


    Artists don't sell CDs which just happen to have some music on them. They are actually selling the music itself!

    About VNV, Ronan said: "We don't need any CD protection. Because we have so many die hard fans, if they buy CDs (and they will buy CDs), that's already enough for us". That is the right way for a band to get the money from fans.
    They really said that? I bought Genesis.1 some time ago and it was copy protected! Crashed my bloody CD-ROM player

  11. #91


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    so in the computer-age everything should be also compatible with the computer ?
    as long as there are still cd-player around, it's not neccesary.


    >simply connecting a stereo's output into the Input of my soundcard and saving the songs on my computer.

    it's possible, but who would do it ? i have a the copyprotected new placebo cd and i need a copy for my car-player. i havent try it and maybe not everyone have the cables and the time and the trust in himself to do it and of course not everyone have a computer.

  12. #92


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    so in the computer-age everything should be also compatible with the computer ?
    as long as there are still cd-player around, it's not neccesary.
    Usually, it's good business practice to make sure your target market is as big as possible. Eliminating everyone who listens to the CD in their computer or MP3 player, as well as those who want to compile their own CDs for the car-stereo with only their favorite tracks does not seem like good business sense to me.

    -It's your CD and it's my money. You can copy protect it if you want. Heck, release them on vinyl only if that's what you want.
    I don't have to buy the CD. In fact, I don't buy copy-protected CDs. If I see a "COPY PROTECTED" sticker on the CD, I don't buy it. If I buy a CD and find out it's copy protected, I return it for a refund. I also have a pile of CDs that I was not allowed to return, which I will send back to the bands eventually.
    I don't support bands who won't allow me to listen to the CD in my computer or MP3 player.

    it's possible, but who would do it ? i have a the copyprotected new placebo cd and i need a copy for my car-player. i havent try it and maybe not everyone have the cables and the time and the trust in himself to do it and of course not everyone have a computer.
    Because of the nature of file-sharing (anyone can download from anyone else), it's enough that one or two people do it and share them. The CDs will then spread like a wildfire over the file-sharing networks. Once they are out in the networks, anyone can download them without having to mess with cables etc. This means that copy protection does not help at all, it's just annoying for the listeners. It's not harder to find copy protected CDs to download on the net than ordinary ones.

  13. #93


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    Default some little comments ;)

    People, I just see this long topic and I just wanna to add few lines

    First of all, I have no idea why you're talking so much about so called Copy Protection? I wanna say it not so big problem to talk so much about. People who buy original CDs for their collections - they buy it for use in collections and their CDs, not with PCs - 'cos for PCs you can (or could in future) buy digital records (from official online music services which I guess will be very large soon)

    Problem of Copy Protection is not problem of De/Vision. This is not their choice (as I guess) too. Copy Protection is a choice of big major labels like BMG, EMI, VIVENDI UNIVERSAL, which released most of legal stuff in the world. Majors decided to put it. So it will be. I have Copy Protected Rammstein's "Feuer Frei"... but I don't e-mail MOTOR for exchange my CD.

    That bad case when not all CDs and DVDs are playing Copy Protected CDs is a problem of choice for type of Copy Protection. I have a lot new Copy Protected CDs and have no problems on all my home equipment, even PC I'm just not grabbing it in MP3, for sure ) So I guess if that much talken about Remixed CD could be protected with CP used by Universal there are problems at all

    Its all my IMHO, so please don't beat me

    ps

    Greets for Lorenz, thanks for being more close to people

    ==============================================

    WWW.SHOUT.RU stands for "COPY KILLS MUSIC!"
    Don't be thief, be loyal to your favorite artists, keep your favorite music alive!

    ==============================================
    everything\'s made of plastic \'cos people are made of steel

  14. #94


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    "People who buy original CDs for their collections - they buy it for use in collections and their CDs, not with PCs - 'cos for PCs you can (or could in future) buy digital records (from official online music services which I guess will be very large soon) "

    So you know what everyone uses to listen to music? How can you be so sure, just because you don't use your PC for music? Many people work with computers all day and they may want to have something to listen to while working? Also you are still ignoring portable MP3 players. The iPod, Creative Nomad etc. are very popular, at least where I live.

    Currently there is no way to buy digital records. Those who want to listen to music on their PC and have copy-protected albums that cause problems have no choice but to download illegal MP3 files from P2P networks.

    Let me put it this way...MP3 currently has the following advantages over CDs:

    1. It's fast - If you have broadband you can have an album in minutes. Much faster than going to the record store or ordering over the internet.

    2. Convenient - no need to take your car and drive 30km to the store to get your album or order over the internet and track your package, maybe pick it up at the postal office because you were not at home when it arrived etc.

    3. Flexible - You can do just about anything with MP3s. Put them on portable players, play them in your computer, burn them on Audio-CDs, put them on Casettes etc. etc.

    4. Free - Sure, it's illegal, but the chances of getting caught are small.


    Labels are currently only targeting #4 by trying to get more severe punishments, adding copy protection etc.

    #4 is the one point that can never be changed. Stealing something will always be cheaper than buying it.

    Instead of focusing on #4, they should try to focus on 1 through 3:

    1&2: Make it possible to download CDs online for a fee. Many of those who download illegal copies of albums today would gladly pay for a service that provided high-quality files and fast download speeds, something that the p2p networks can not always provide.

    3: Simply removing the stupid copy protection would be enough. Old-fashioned music listeners who only use their stereo equipment probably don't realize the importance of this since they are not used to portable players, playing CDs in the computers at work, school etc.

    4. If the record companies can provide services of higher quality than the flaky and illegal p2p services that force users to share their harddrives, have slow download speeds and more often than not, poor audio quality of the songs (clicks and pops from the ripping process or poorly encoded files), I think people would be willing to pay for that.
    A huge machinery slowly rotates

  15. #95


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    Originally posted by DarkstaR

    They really said that? I bought Genesis.1 some time ago and it was copy protected! Crashed my bloody CD-ROM player
    But it's first and only protected release from VNV Nation.

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