Holy Crap .... a review around here that got rated a 5 outta 10 (Intuition) [Archive]

~NullDevice

July 4th, 2003, 12:00 PM

Well, exactly. 120 albums all rated "Excellent!" means that either the reviewer(s) only review things he/they lke or likes everything he reiviews. But unless you see something they don't like as much, you don't really know what their baseline and criteria are. If everything is "awesome" then all it could mean is the reviewer really likes those shiny silver discs.

Now, granted, there's more to a review than just a number. A good reivew will rate something and explain in great detail what was good and not so good about it. Often a not-so-highly-rated review is more helpful for me to decide whether I want to buy an album than a highly related one - those tend to be so damn effusive I can't get a feel for what the album is actually like! I've probably bought more albums on the backs of decent-but-not-stellar reviews than I have off of 10++++ reviews.

Of course the worst kind of review are the kind where it's entirely a stream of the reviewer trying to prove how excellent their writing style is. Those tend to be baffling and useless. :)

~Color Theory

July 4th, 2003, 12:51 PM

I'm familiar with a lot of the reviewed releases, and I think if you got a screening panel together to do some head-to-head album comparisons, Intuition's would fare better than many of the "10"s. Another issue that they face, that I face myself, is that their music is on the lighter side, and leans more towards pop than industrial. Generally those type of releases don't garner positive reviews in publications like Side-Line - GENERALLY... :) Most lean towards a harder edge. At least that's how it looks from this side of the fence.

Maybe I should've read the review first - it confirms what I'm saying: "definately lacking bite" (his misspelling, not mine). He disses "Bleed", my favorite track on the album, for being "pleasant" rather than "cutting edge dark". Who promised him a dark album with bite? He compares Intuition with Robbie Williams as if it's a bad thing. Honestly, I've never heard Robbie Williams myself, but I know that Ken from Intuition has, because he cited that album as a reference when I was doing the mastering.

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that this was the wrong reviewer for the album. He had preconceived ideas of what it should sound like, based on... ? As a synthpop album with pop leanings, Intuition's "Further" is fantastic. But they are not the next Mesh or VNV Nation.

~KissTheStar

July 4th, 2003, 01:15 PM

Hey I like Robbie Williams ... any cat that can step on stage with a Navy Blazer and a white Captains hat and have "Bond" girls all over him is alright by me ....

Electroswank

July 4th, 2003, 01:56 PM

WRONG
But i agree with Color Theory when they say that this was the wrong reviewer for the album... They're basing the review on personal feelings and opinions. The reviewer obivously prefers more harder/ebm/darkwave styles and is judging Intuition for how much they are NOT like that. Its an unfair and biased review.

I just saw Intution play live at the ADD sythpop fest in NY. They connected with the audience, got them excited pulled off an amazing live show. I guess it helps that they write solid pop songs. So what if one or two songs sounds like Robbie Williams... hell, Robbie Williams signed an 80 million dollar pound deal with EMI UK.

I'd take that as a compliement!!

~NullDevice

July 4th, 2003, 02:43 PM

Well, I don't think there's such a thing as a wrong reviewer for an album. Reviews are by definitiion biased, aren't they? I mean, everybody's got an opinion. The way I read the review, the guy didn't have any preconcieved notions of what the album should sound like - he just didn't like the music. The review seemd in many places quite complimentary of the band, he just didn't find "anything to sink his teeth into." He even goes so far as to say that many people will like the album, despite the fact that he doesn't. That seems like a pretty fair shake. He might not be the king of poppy synth music, but he's obviously got familiarity with the genre and knows his material. It's not like the reviewers from Kerrang! were given a copy.

Tailoring a reviewer to an album doesn't give you much in the way of perspective. You want a reviewer that's deeply familiar with the pop side of synthpop, great. But not everybody who may consider buying the album is going to have the same background either. My musical taste would probably tend to align with the reviewer's, for example, and not with a reviewer who is a huge fan of Robbie Williams.

Besides, you rarely want to look over just one review anyway. I used to be a big fan of Al Crawford's reviews, because he would go into minute detail about every album, but rarely did I buy or not buy an album on his word alone. If I had, I wouldn't own any Erasure.

Balance. It's all about balance. A good review critiques, it doesn't just praise. It can praise, sure, and the best reviews dissect things pretty well and explain what's good and what's not. But in the end, it's all a subjective opinion, and you don't have to agree with it. But just because you don't doesn't make it an illegitimate review. Your opinion is equally valid, too. So write and post your own review, get some more discussion and reasoned back-and-forth going. That's what this is all about, isn't it?

~goedley

July 4th, 2003, 02:56 PM

Looks like wonko already said what I wanted to but here's my take.

Originally posted by ElectroSwank

But i agree with Color Theory when they say that this was the wrong reviewer for the album... They're basing the review on personal feelings and opinions.

I admit I know absolutely nothing about Intuition. Never heard a note of their music as far as I know. However, I don't how see anyone could possibly do a review for an album other than to base it on "personal feelings and opinions." I guess one could take a poll..

In reading the review, I think the reviewer went out of their way to say that although it didn't appeal to them, it may appeal to other whose tastes lean toward more the more poppy side.

Like it or not, reviews are based on people's opinions and if they don't happen to like music, as a critic, they should say why. Okay, maybe they shouldn't try to review music that's really far outside what they 'like.'

Okay, maybe most of us don't like country music and we couldn't review it in any manner objectively. But I doubt there is anything on ADD or any of the other synth/industrial labels that is so far outside our tastes that we couldn't review it in a way that would make sense to most of the community.

There are albums I can't stand that get heaps of praise and albums I love that get crappy reviews. Opinions differ, especially over music but this doesn't make reviews worthless just interesting.

Originally posted by ElectroSwank

So what if one or two songs sounds like Robbie Williams... hell, Robbie Williams signed an 80 million dollar pound deal with EMI UK.

I'd take that as a compliment!!

I agree with this.

~cliffwalk

July 4th, 2003, 04:01 PM

OK... here's what sort of bugs me. I hadn't really spent too much time looking at the reviews until now.

Are we grading these albums on a curve?

"Well, not bad for an underground synth act"

Ya know what? I'd give Intuition's album a 5 and damnit they should be proud of that 5 because with the same set of standards I'd give Dead Bees on Cake (David Sylvian) a 7.5 and it didn't leave my CD player for months.

I assure you, however, with that list of reviews there would be a lot of 2s and 3s based on my personal taste.

But, who shares my tastes? That would be for the individual to decide. Point? With multiple reviewers we should have a MUCH larger standard deviation than we do.

Dave

~Color Theory

July 4th, 2003, 04:32 PM

You'd give Dead Bees on a Cake a 7.5? Maybe I'm jaded after waiting 14 years for that dang album, but I'd give it a 9. ;) The new one however (Blemish)… let’s just say I need to listen to it a few more times to develop any appreciation for it whatsoever.

I agree completely with checking out different reviews and getting a broad base of opinion. I also agree that a good review has both good and bad things to say. Yet I still hold that there is such a thing as the "wrong reviewer".

The extreme example was raised of reviewing country music. I think I could give a country album a fair shake, and rate it based on other albums of the same style. I don't think it's fair of a reviewer to say, essentially, "it's good if you're into that sort of thing, but I'm not, so it gets a bad rating." And that's what I feel like we have here.

So in other words, if the comparison of Intuition to Robbie Williams is meant as a put-down, we’ve got the wrong reviewer. Or at the very least, the ranking should be based on how the album compares with albums of a similar style.

~cliffwalk

July 5th, 2003, 12:52 AM

Originally posted by Color Theory
You'd give Dead Bees on a Cake a 7.5? Maybe I'm jaded after waiting 14 years for that dang album, but I'd give it a 9. ;) The new one however (Blemish)… let’s just say I need to listen to it a few more times to develop any appreciation for it whatsoever.

So in other words, if the comparison of Intuition to Robbie Williams is meant as a put-down, we’ve got the wrong reviewer. Or at the very least, the ranking should be based on how the album compares with albums of a similar style.

(Why am I NOT surprised you're a Sylvian fan, Brian? hehe.... I think I found your music searching for bands listing him as an influence... can't remember...)

OK, maybe an 8. The stark imagery of Secret of the Beehive and the absolute tonal frenzy happens on Gone to Earth are the soundtrack of my youth. Those are two of the 10s :) DBOC is pretty damn good. "Darkest Dreaming" uffda, if I could write that beautifully I'd never sleep. My gawd what a perfect song. But I guess overall I think the anticipation ALMOST ruined that album for me. I almost waited TOOO long.

I haven't heard Blemish yet. I've actually been so wrapped up in school, baby-prep, and work that I totally forgot it was being released this soon... I'll have to check it out... I heard it's a far stray from his normal vocal stuff. Much more improvisational. Could be interesting, for some reason I'm not expecting brilliant.

As for the comparison to Robbie Williams..I haven't actually heard any of his stuff... but.. yeah... I went and actually read that review finally (Intuition). It is confusing as hell. It's sort of like saying you hate the latest (randomizer on) Aztec Camera album because it's not as dark as (randomizer on, again) Nine Inch Nails. *shrug* Can't really lend it much relavance.

Peace
Dave

~Color Theory

July 5th, 2003, 02:47 AM

(off topic, sorry)

Secrets of the Beehive is my all-time favorite album. I didn't even mind that my parents liked it too! I've bought that CD for many of my friends as a gift. It's kind of like handing out a Color Theory CD - the recipient may or may not like it, but at least you know they don't already have it! ;)

~cliffwalk

July 5th, 2003, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by Color Theory
(off topic, sorry)

Secrets of the Beehive is my all-time favorite album. I didn't even mind that my parents liked it too! I've bought that CD for many of my friends as a gift. It's kind of like handing out a Color Theory CD - the recipient may or may not like it, but at least you know they don't already have it! ;)

I would beam for hours about how brilliant that album is. Trust me, I could. Probably my all-time favorite as well. Knocked me on my butt when I was 16 and still brings chills at 32.

You wont find a huge lack of Sylvian-awareness on EGN but outside of this place the only time I run into someone who even KNOWS who DS is they're a musician.... and usually only the rather serious ones.

The music is so accessible. I'm surprised that it's not better known.

Dave

~David Vesel

July 5th, 2003, 12:39 PM

Reviews are reviews. They are useful only to a certain point, and they need to be taken in the context of the other reviews that reviewer has done in the past. To me one review from one reviewer only has limited value. It does have value, but more reviews from more varied perspectives is better.

I got a good review from Jason at synthpop.net. I'm sure a bunch of people here thought he was sniffing glue at the time. I've also gotten reviews at Gods of Music that were all over the map. I think Jason is a great reviewer, and I trust his judgment, but I'd be a fool (and I think he'd understand) if I were only to use his reviews as indicators of what music I might like.

I just wish there were more reviews here at EGN. Two good review archives would be a great help to the electropop community and they would compliment each other.

~kenporter

July 5th, 2003, 02:10 PM

I think the reviewer was rather kind to us, I mean he clearly didn't like the album and still gave us a 5 out of 10. Tastes are different and if he didn't like it that's OK. I think it would be hard to do an unbiased review, your personal taste is always what the review will be based on! Our album is very light and poppy and if somebody expects a darker album then he or she will be very disappointed. But that's what Intuition is all about, light, poppy and uplifting music :-)

Now the comparison to Robbie Williams to me is a HUGE compliment! As Brian has said before Robbie Williams is one of my current favorite artists. I find it funny when people try to put you down by comparing you to a major artist who sells millions of records. We were compared to the Backstreet Boys before which the person tried to use as an insult, but we were actually really happy about it. Robbie Williams and The Backstreet Boys all make music, and therefore do what they love for a living. What's wrong about that? ;-)

Lastly:
Anna, it was a blast meeting you, Amy and the BNI guys at the New York festival! Hope we'll see each other soon, maybe in LA!?

Take care,
Ken

~cliffwalk

July 5th, 2003, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by kenporter
Robbie Williams and The Backstreet Boys all make music, and therefore do what they love for a living. What's wrong about that? ;-)

I'll be honest. I don't mind music that "SOUNDS LIKE" pop music as much as I dislike "mainstream" pop music itself, if that makes ANY sense.

I mean, like it or not, the people that they buy the talent from to make these albums are damn good musicians. Some of the best writers in the industry make their living writing for the pop industry.

It's the presentation that turns me off these days. It feels polluted so I don't want to put money in that machine's pockets. I'd rather find people that have the talent but are doing it themselves.

If an Indie band just HAPPENS to have a lighter more cheerful sound does I think that the music gets too easily discarded for sounding too "plastic".

This album is a good case in point.

Subtle differences... I dunno... Some of my favorite artists have that "Contemporary/Adult 30-something quartel/7th voicing harmonized sound". (Color Theory, for instance)

My big question is finding the younger market with that sound because we've already established that the OLDER market doesn't buy as much music.

OR maybe we need to live in a world where we don't cash in our soul at age 30 and continue listening to the same ¤¤¤¤ we listened to at 20. (as a practice)

I think people stop adding items to their buffet too early in life... that's a bad cultural paradigm.

I guess it's the over prevalence of friends I have in the IT industry that usually have either Van Halen, Metalicca, or some 80's compilation in their car ALL THE TIME.

Try your fries with peppered mayo...

(Well I derailed the fleck out of this thread, just saying what's on my mind)

Dave

NoirTech

July 5th, 2003, 06:27 PM

In my opinion, I don't think the type of people who listen to apop/beborn/vnv/industrial/ebm..etc....should review this album. It would be like me trying to review a country/western album. No matter how good it was, I would probably not give it any high points, just because I'm not into that type of music.

~NullDevice

July 5th, 2003, 06:45 PM

Yeah, but this reviewer in particular isn't just an apop/VNV/ebm fan - he was obviously familiar with other stuff (he knew the work of the Echoing Green, for example) and he's reviewed plenty of other stuff of varying types. Really, the stretch between futurepoppy stuff and "lighter" synthpop isn't all that far (Echo Image, for example). It's really *not* like any one of us reviewing a country album. We're getting down to subgenre nitpicking - it's not quite but almost to the point where we're accusing the reiviewr of being unfair because the album cover was a royla blue and the reviewer really prefers indigo.

Who reviews an album is pretty much the luck of the draw. We, for example, had a fair number of fans in the Side-Line office, but the guy who fished our album off the pile for the review wasn't one of them and really didn't like it. That's just the way it goes.

NoirTech

July 5th, 2003, 06:48 PM

What I was trying to get at is that this album is beyond what we call synthpop. In my opinion...once again...it is playing in a different level then any of the bands the guy has reviewed in the past.

~NullDevice

July 6th, 2003, 01:45 AM

Huh. Well, I haven't heard the album, so I can't really judge that.

I'd think then that the review of Peter Gabriel's "Up" on the website then must be totally off-base, then. That's certainly beyond synthpop.

~Color Theory

July 6th, 2003, 02:37 AM

I give "Up" an 8.

;)

NoirTech

July 6th, 2003, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by NullDevice
Huh. Well, I haven't heard the album, so I can't really judge that.

I'd think then that the review of Peter Gabriel's "Up" on the website then must be totally off-base, then. That's certainly beyond synthpop.

What can I say. Mark really loves Peter Garbriel. He was telling me he was going to post a review of that album before he did, and I thought it was great that we would start getting other type of music review up there. Maybe I should submit a 50 Cent review. :-)

I'm obviously kidding about the 50 Cent review.....(or am I?)

~garrett

July 6th, 2003, 04:59 PM

Forget the Intuition album, you guys HAVE to hear the new Canibal Corpse album! Perfect for an evening away with your sweetheart.

~cliffwalk

July 6th, 2003, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by garrett
Forget the Intuition album, you guys HAVE to hear the new Canibal Corpse album! Perfect for an evening away with your sweetheart.
*ROFLMAO*

:)

~David Vesel

July 6th, 2003, 10:28 PM

Iew. Makes me just want to run out and buy it.

And grab a snack, for that matter. Not. :)

I stick by what I said before. It's not one review that counts. It's the number of reviews. One review doesn't help you. Twenty reviews helps a lot, even if half of them are negative.

~carlj

July 7th, 2003, 09:48 AM

I must admit to being totally gobsmacked that one negative review has raised so much controversy. It was me who reviewed the Intuition album & despite my negative comments I did mention that many synthpop fans would like it & in all my opinions I made sure it was clear that this was only my take on the album & that I fully expected some people to disagree with me.
As to why I reviewed the album, I did so because Todd Durrant sent me a copy for this reason. I have been reviewing ADD releases for 6 years or so now so Todd obviously knows that I can put aside my personal likes & dislikes to a certain extent when reviewing, I've spoken with him on this subject & he is OK about it. Just because I disliked this album does not make me a synthpop hater as I have favourably reviewed artists such as The Echoing Green, Color Theory, Empire State Human, Freezepop, Nukleon, Gary Flanagan & Seven Words in the past (not all on EGN but other places too) & enjoy listening to all these bands as well as EBM & so on. I do feel qualified to review the album as my tastes stretch beyond these genres to instrumental electronic music & even Hawkwind & Ozric Tentacles!! At no point did I say I expected Intuition to be the new Mesh or VNV & did not base my review from this viewpoint, I simply thought it lacked feeling & heart, this is a comment about this album, not all synthpop, although 'dark' might have been the wrong adjective to use when describing what I hoped "Bleed" might be like, "gritty" would have been better.
At the end of the day I stand by what I said about the album even if I have attracted a lot of flak for it. I am pleased that a lot of people have enjoyed it & are getting into the band. Still, at least people are talking & debating which can only be a good thing.

~cliffwalk

July 7th, 2003, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by carlj
At the end of the day I stand by what I said about the album even if I have attracted a lot of flak for it. I am pleased that a lot of people have enjoyed it & are getting into the band. Still, at least people are talking & debating which can only be a good thing.

This is reassuring to read. I think what this thread shows to me is that one thing our little "community" needs to be careful about/congnizant of is consistency and integrity. To keep the bar high for the artists as well as to continue expanding the listener's experience we need to continually up the bar as well as simply exercise our ability to critically think.

That was my whole complaint to begin with. If there's what appears to be a rather "skewed" set of ratings NOW then maybe we just want to resolve to invest the time in giving more useful critiques. That process builds better music.

Dave

~matrix

July 7th, 2003, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by carlj
I simply thought it lacked feeling & heart, this is a comment about this album, not all synthpop, although 'dark' might have been the wrong adjective to use when describing what I hoped "Bleed" might be like, "gritty" would have been better.

To me this comment is absurd. In my opinion Further has a lot of feeling and heart, and with Iris it is the best album of the year so far. Bleed to be more gritty? Come on, it's a ballad/love song, why should it be more gritty? Of course like people said before tastes are different.

~NullDevice

July 7th, 2003, 02:15 PM

See, these are opinions. And a reviewer should have them, what with that being his job and all. They're not "wrong" or "right" they just "are." You may not agree with it, but that doesn't make it wrong.

For example, a ballad/love song can sound gritty - there are plenty of very "gritty" ballads out there. And he thought that perhaps this one would've been better served had it been of that style, based on lyrical and/or musical content. That's his opinion, and it doesn't agree with yours. That doesn't make the assessment unfair or absurd.

Maybe Further connected with you. But since everybody has different experiences, tastes, etc, it may not have connected with Carl on the same level. Since I generally have agreed with his taste in music, reading the review would tell a person like me that hey, maybe Intuition isn't my speed. That doesn't make it a bad album. It just means that it's probably not my taste, even though it's yours.

So, what, he should just blindly give it a good review so I can go out and buy it and be dissatisfied? The only people "qualified" to do a music review are people that will like what they're given? Would you do that with a movie? A hip-hop record? Why is a synthpop reviewer being held to different standards? Is Roger Ebert unqualified becuse he panned "Cabin Boy"; becasue he doesn't normally like Chris Elliot movies?

Really, there're a few things wrong with this whole discussion. The whole concept of a review is subjective, and people are acting like it's some sort of objective discussion that is just wrong. People are accusing him of being "unqualified" to review the album - but what, exactly, makes {you} qualified to meta-review the review? {Your} opinions on the review would be biased by your feelings on the album, which is exactly the same sort of bias he's being accused of. (I'm about a step away from trying to prove the fallacy of the argument using boolean algebra)

And reading the review over and over again, it's not a bad review. If he'd given a score of "8" but written the same dang thing, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Personally I think EGN should have mroe reviews of non-synthpop releases...I'm sure there's more than 3 or 4 of us who listen to things *other* than bleeps and sweeps.

NoirTech

July 7th, 2003, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by NullDevice

Personally I think EGN should have mroe reviews of non-synthpop releases...I'm sure there's more than 3 or 4 of us who listen to things *other* than bleeps and sweeps.

THIS, I agree with.
Time to expand.

~cliffwalk

July 7th, 2003, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by NoirTech

THIS, I agree with.
Time to expand.

In the interest of stealing yet another post for accumulation sake I'm going to throw in "ME TOO".

I mean the focus of this site is on Electronics so there should be boundaries but, for instance, David Sylvian just released a new album. It's a series of pieces of Acoustic Guitar and Electronics.

Not really synthpop but I bet a review of it would interest more than just me. And that's the tip.

Also, there's a whole world of hybrid styles... again, that doesn't fall into the standard 80s synthpop genre that I'D LOVE to read reviews and news about ...

This is one of those consensus things. My interest on here isn't because of the standard defined "synthpop". It's because of SYNTHESIZERS. Electronic music/Synthesizers are one of many musical interests of mine.

Hell, if Vangelis and Jon Anderson released another album together I'd love to read a review on that.

Rick Wakeman, Keith Emerson, Ryuiki Sakamoto, Brian Eno, Trevor Horn, Geoffrey Downes and the list goes on...etc.

Dave