This $#^%#$^& budget!

[~Jupiter 4]

For those of you who live in the so-called Golden State, this budget business can be a real $%&^$. As a faculty member at the University of California, I get this little 4th of July present from the President of the University...

July 1, 2003

MEMBERS OF THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA COMMUNITY

As you surely know, the new fiscal year began today without a State budget in place. Because there has been a significant amount of news coverage regarding the effects on State agencies of not having a budget, I want to provide you with a quick summary of where the University of California stands.

The lack of a State budget is a serious concern to us, and the longer the State goes this summer without a budget, the more of a problem it becomes for the University. We certainly share the hope that a budget resolution can be reached as quickly as possible. Let me summarize the impact of the budget impasse on the University, as best we can now tell, in two principal areas:

Salaries:

State Controller Steve Westly has issued a letter indicating that
State employees, including UC employees, will continue to be paid their regular salaries for the first part of the summer. As a result, we currently expect our July 1 and August 1 payrolls to be processed normally. However, the controller indicated that in August or September, if the State still does not have a budget, his office will begin implementing a recent court decision that said State employees may only be paid the minimum wage while there is no budget. This change is not being implemented immediately because it requires a large number of State computer programming changes, the controller said. While it is unclear at the moment whether or how the University would be impacted by this court ruling, UC employees should be aware that they may potentially be subject to it. This means that, later
this summer, salary payments for UC employees could be temporarily reduced until there is a state budget (at which time full salaries would be paid retroactively). Please be assured that the University will do everything it can to prevent this outcome and that we will share more information as it becomes available.

...blah, blah, blah...

Thank you for your patience, your understanding, and your good work
for the people of California.

Sincerely,

Richard C. Atkinson
President


Translation: you are screwed...go beg your landlord to let you stay!

[~cliffwalk]

Originally posted by Jupiter 4
his office will begin implementing a recent court decision that said State employees may only be paid the minimum wage while there is no budget.

did that come with a coupon for a jar of vaseline?

man, what a major screw job.

i am SORRY.

wow

dave

[~Jupiter 4]

Can you believe it? At least let them buy us dinner first!

[~KissTheStar]

Y'all should just walk the ¤¤¤¤ out when that happens and put the screws to those mother ¤¤¤¤ers in Sacramento .....


RECALL GRAY DAVIS >>>>>>> He is a jack ass.

[~Jupiter 4]

Oh, believe me, I've signed that petition. He already has reduced our programmatic budget here by 90 percent...I would do so, but its not the kids' faults. They have paid through the nose for their UC educations, and I can't see letting them down!

[~skylla]

how can they just stop paying you your normal wages??? if this happened in dk the whole country would go on strike!!! (god knows this happens every fourth year here, when the raise isn't big enough for some workgroup).

[~Jupiter 4]

Its just the way it is here legislatively in California. I just can't imagine these $100k administrators taking $6.95 an hour...I am sure that they are well protected under some loophole or other!

[test]

Originally posted by Jupiter 4
For those of you who live in the so-called Golden State, this budget business can be a real $%&^$. As a faculty member at the University of California, I get this little 4th of July present from the President of the University...

July 1, 2003

MEMBERS OF THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA COMMUNITY

As you surely know, the new fiscal year began today without a State budget in place. Because there has been a significant amount of news coverage regarding the effects on State agencies of not having a budget, I want to provide you with a quick summary of where the University of California stands.

The lack of a State budget is a serious concern to us, and the longer the State goes this summer without a budget, the more of a problem it becomes for the University. We certainly share the hope that a budget resolution can be reached as quickly as possible. Let me summarize the impact of the budget impasse on the University, as best we can now tell, in two principal areas:

Salaries:

State Controller Steve Westly has issued a letter indicating that
State employees, including UC employees, will continue to be paid their regular salaries for the first part of the summer. As a result, we currently expect our July 1 and August 1 payrolls to be processed normally. However, the controller indicated that in August or September, if the State still does not have a budget, his office will begin implementing a recent court decision that said State employees may only be paid the minimum wage while there is no budget. This change is not being implemented immediately because it requires a large number of State computer programming changes, the controller said. While it is unclear at the moment whether or how the University would be impacted by this court ruling, UC employees should be aware that they may potentially be subject to it. This means that, later
this summer, salary payments for UC employees could be temporarily reduced until there is a state budget (at which time full salaries would be paid retroactively). Please be assured that the University will do everything it can to prevent this outcome and that we will share more information as it becomes available.

...blah, blah, blah...

Thank you for your patience, your understanding, and your good work
for the people of California.

Sincerely,

Richard C. Atkinson
President
Translation: you are screwed...go beg your landlord to let you stay!

Translation: you are screwed...go beg your landlord to let you stay!




ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why do they fiddle fart around with their time when they KNOW we have to have a budget by July 1st? This has happened for the last 14 out of 17 years. This is RIDCULOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: They should be the ones who don't get paid until they pass the budget. They should be REQUIRED to be in Sacto until they pass the budget. No leaving, no sleeping, no eating, NOTHING until it gets passed!!!!!!!!!!! They are b a s t a r d s!!!!!!!!!!!! Why do they take it out on us??? They better pass a budget and soon. This isn't fair to those of us who are State employees. It's NOT right!

I didn't vote for Davis. That was the first time that I didn't vote for my party. I voted for the Green party candidate. However, do you really think that spending money to take him out of office is best spent doing so???? That is money that can be spent on schools, hospitals, police officers, etc.


Yeah, I can hardly wait to call my mortgage company and tell them, um , yeah, sorry. I can't pay you because I am an employee of the state and I have NO money cuz they farted around and didn't pass a budget. Yeah, that's going to go over really well. :rolleyes: :mad:

[~Jupiter 4]

Gonna have to tell the dogs to go out and hunt for themselves a bit. Funny, when the DMV wants your registration monies (and, as I am sure Stephanie knows they will increase by 300 or so percent in the next few months) they want it then and there. "Oh, sorry, officer, yes, I know, but I work for Gray Davis..." Well, I guess if its the CHP they can sympathize....

[~cliffwalk]

:( What REALLY pisses me off about this the most.

HOW DO THEY EXPECT TO KEEP PEOPLE IN THE TEACHING PROFESSION WHEN THIS IS THE ¤¤¤¤ TEACHERS HAVE TO FACE???

Damnit! No wonder our public education system is so ¤¤¤¤ED!

And I'm actually considering switching my career to teaching. What am I smoking?

dave

[~Jupiter 4]

Yes--K-12, higher ed, if you work for the state here, you are definitely not taken care of. However, Dave, Illinois might not be as bad, plus, there are always private institutions that do not have to weather the same types of storms...

[test]

Originally posted by cliffwalk
:( What REALLY pisses me off about this the most.

HOW DO THEY EXPECT TO KEEP PEOPLE IN THE TEACHING PROFESSION WHEN THIS IS THE ¤¤¤¤ TEACHERS HAVE TO FACE???

Damnit! No wonder our public education system is so ¤¤¤¤ED!

And I'm actually considering switching my career to teaching. What am I smoking?

dave

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't even start me on the No Child Left Behind law. That's going to make things even worse for those of us who teach in K-12. Politicians have no brains!!! They should be required to visit a school for a week and see what their laws have done to us. They should experience what we face on a daily basis. B A S T A R D S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[~skylla]

kinda got pissed off after reading through the thread again. how come people can be so careless with something as important as school? do you have a surplus of teachers over there? what if they loose all their best teachers to private schools?

shheeesss... in that sence things are similar to dk. somehow it's always the schools, the childcare facilities, the universities and research facilities that get's into budget trouble. seems politicians have trouble thinking past the next election period. let's postpone the problems to the next administration... :(

...oh, and if you get in trouble moneywise let us know. i don't have a lot of money, but i can always spare a little cash and we are many in here on the egn...

[~Brand New Idol]

Damn and they didn't even give you a reach around?

Going from salaried to being paid less than mcdonalds wages will surely hurt some poeple. At least they are talking about retroactive pay, but still I can't imagine doing the job for minimum wage where you probably were making exponentially more than that. I mean does that mean your bills will be covered by the same applicable law? Nah didn't think so.

As cliff said, get out the vasoline.

[7red7]

Originally posted by Kiss*the*Star
Y'all should just walk the ¤¤¤¤ out when that happens and put the screws to those mother ¤¤¤¤ers in Sacramento .....


RECALL GRAY DAVIS >>>>>>> He is a jack ass.

Oh hell yeah I'm with you on that one...F**K Davis!!! That son of a b***H has broken our freaking state dry...

I've already signed fifteen petitions myself...Get online, go to the local post offices, community centers in your area...The petitions are out there to have him recalled, and every name on them counts...

Jup, I'm so sorry to hear about your budget cuts man, thats a heartbreaker...So hey let me ask you though (and in no way am I making light) are they really considering implimenting the California state minimum wage for the college faculty??? They're expecting you guys to educate students and provide services at an accredited university for the same amount of money a 15 year old makes at McDonald's??? Thats some bulls**t right there...

I'm definately with you Jup, screw this...

DAN

[~Jupiter 4]

Imagine, if you will, Nobel Laureates making $6.95 an hour. Going to the temp agency--"Are you familiar with accounts payable?"
"Well, I won the Nobel Prize for Economics in 1988..."
"But do you know Excel?"

Yes, unfortunately, they expect the faculty and the hundreds of others of us to grin and bear it. Not to mention that they've just socked it to the kids by increasing their tuition...so, what are they getting in return? Pissed off faculty, administrators, and staff...through no fault of their own. Campus towns like Irvine and Berkeley are really going to suffer...as much of their economies depend on revenues from the university staff.

BNI...I think exponentially more might be pushing it...especially living in Southern California...but at minimum wage? Won't be pretty if it happens (and we are all praying it doesn't). They've had to change the motto of the UC from 'Fiat Lux' (Let there be light) to 'The Best Education That $6.95/hr can Provide'

Thank you all for the well wishes...look for me at McDonald's near you..."Would you like fries with that? An article on the treatise of Rome?" :)

[test]

Republicans WON'T be ANY better!!!!!!!!! Argh!!! We are going to be going to hell in a handbasket. :mad:

Davis certainly isn't ANY help, but do you honestly think that Issah is any better?

I can't read this thread any more. It's making me worry and I am literally getting sick and stressed out over all of this mess. It happened during my Christmas vacation and now it's happening again. Damn! :(

[~Jupiter 4]

So sorry Stephanie, didn't mean to stress you out...just a rude awakening this morning for the wife and me (the wife works as an academic counselor just across campus). All of the EGNers have been very supportive, and makes things much better!

[test]

You didn't stress me out with your post. The politicians who wasted time dilly dallying on this stress me out. We are going to be even WORSE off than we are now due to all of this stalling. Get off your butt, cross the god damned party line and pass a budget already!!! :mad: People's livelihoods and safety are at risk because they can't seem to think of ALL involved. Raise the stupid sales tax a half a penny and be done with it. ARGH!!!!!!!!!!

[~melibita]

Argh, the school budgets in CA is really bad! I work as a tutor for middle-school students. A lot of them don't even have math books, and yet they are expected to be able to work on these math worksheets. How do they expect the kids to be able to do the math when they aren't given the formulas??

[~Jupiter 4]

I used to work for LA Unified!

'Nuff said!

Maybe they are looking for a DADA professor at Hogwarts this summer...or a remedial potions instructor...

[~Kirlian Blue]

That is F**king disgusting there would be Riots if that was in Britain seriously your state Governer,Senator would have the liveing S*it kicked out of them ..I bl@@dy wood kill the fu*kers. Minimum wage for someone as educated as a University Lecturer who teaches and provides the next geneartion of thinkers and skills to help and grow an economy then shoot you in the foot like that im disgusted ....

Give me the email of the Policy Maker and ill give them a email they wont forget and wont like and put my name on that Petition from England with know love for The Golden State that cant sort out its Prioritys or treat its future Generations properly by F**king doing what theyre doing!

JP4 im am sorry to here all this cr*p your getting that dri*ves me wild even though I live in the UK my Father was a University Professor and My Mother when she is well enough will go back to Teaching Art&Culture at The University of London..so I have sympathy with you mate in a big way!!!

I honestly hope the situation is sorted out and the Finance is found !

[~Jupiter 4]

We shall keep our fingers crossed. Most of the higher-ranked professors here have plenty of money so they won't be giving up their Ben Shermans ... this is fun money for them, as you can imagine!

[~NightHalo]

I did not know that they changed the faculty wages. I am a student at UC Berkeley and I thought that our $500+ extra per semester was bad. Luckily I cannot complain because the state pays for my education, but I do think it is wrong to change the salaries of the faculty. Did you hear about that new program called Start (or something like that)? It is a new program they are making for UC staff to cut their own hours voluntarily.

If any of you are interested, here is a link about the budget hikes at my school. Apparently things are just going up and up...(I really hope I have enough for rent this year, since all of my money comes from the money I have left over after my tuition fees! :crosses fingers:)

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/budget/

[~labrat]

Oh, I am so sorry to hear about this...You guys ought to all walk out of your jobs and go on strike until they get the freakin' mess straightened out, if they are really going to stick it to you like this. That sucks!!! :mad: :(

[~Jupiter 4]

Hi Nighthalo--

My wife has heard a lot about START, the voluntary cutbacks--I am in a faculty position so it doesn't really apply--at least that I know of. You probably know that the UC budget is bad shape...what school at Cal are you in? I do a lot of work with the ArtsBridge program at UCB--and you can imagine how much the arts are valued in a science-driven institution!

If worse comes to worse, you can always sell from tables on Telegraph Avenue! I've heard that these budget snafus typically go to the eleventh hour and then are worked out. I just think it is awful to spring a tuition hike on the students rather than gradually increase the fees over time.

How much &&)&*)%^$ energy did we buy during the last two years anyway?

[7red7]

Well not to laugh, but that post about knowing excel and winning a nobel prize was genius and had me on the floor :laugh:

It's sad to see what our state has come to these days...Education and educators are given the boot up the arse, students suffer by the state increasing tuition so high they have to practically work five jobs or drop out because they can't afford it...

Education aside, have you guys heard what else the state of California and our beloved Davis has implimented??? Tripling the state vehicle license renewal fees!!! Thats right...All of us with new cars just got screwed without the lube...They're going to almost triple the cost of renewing your license plate tags...Is this their solution to the overcrowded highways??? Make the cost of driving so outrageously high people have to pay monthly payments on a car they can't drive???

Again, it's all BS!!!

Hey Jup, save me a spot next to you on Telegraph man, I'm going to need the extra money to renew my tags, and transfer to La Verne this Fall...The state financial aid says I make too much money to qualify for it, my paychecks every week say I might be able to get all the groceries we'll need to survive the next few days and still have enough to pay a bill or two...

DAN

[test]

Well, I am going to say some down right unpopular things, but I don't really care.

Why don't they add a sales tax on alcohol? They added more taxes on cigarettes. I don't see why alcohol should be exempt? I don't smoke or drink, so I am not affected at all.

I think that they should have just left the vehichle registration fees like they were in 1998. I hate this taking back crap! I have personalized plates on my 2001 Civic. Those were totally MY choice. I just wonder if renewing them will be under $500.00 :rolleyes: They should have just left the fees what they were. This isn't right.

I don't know much about the Start program. I do however have a BIG problem with ANY administrators asking for teachers to take a pay cut. Why don't THEY take a cut?!!! I am a teacher and I work my butt off during the school year, often working through my lunch and recess breaks. I don't get paid NEARLY what I should with 4 years of college, plus a year in the credential program. I should be making what other professionals with as much education are making. I must really love my job to get the pay I do. I *do* love my kids. They are the reason why I teach. It certainly is NOT the pay. Argh!!! What do administrators do???? They sit in their cushy offices earning a cushy salary. What contact do THEY have with students?? Minimal.

Raising college tuition? That is insane!!!!!!!!! We need to make the tuition affordable for ALL. Rate hikes will force deserving people out. It's totally not right. A few years from now, people will start screaming that there aren't many educated workers in the workforce. Yeah, raising college tuition will be the reason for that. :mad:

Don't *even* start me on the whole enegry thing. I am sooo angry over that one.

[~cliffwalk]

Originally posted by Stephanie
Raising college tuition? That is insane!!!!!!!!! We need to make the tuition affordable for ALL. Rate hikes will force deserving people out. It's totally not right. A few years from now, people will start screaming that there aren't many educated workers in the workforce. Yeah, raising college tuition will be the reason for that. :mad:

I answer your questions in the simplesst way I can but the answer is sort of broad... but I believe it.

Before I say this: Stephanie and Jupiter --> I am sorry your situation sucks as bad as it does. I hope my rant on this doesn't make it worse.

Honestly, WHY? Very bluntly:

-If everyone could afford a college education everyone would be qualified for better jobs. Who would clean the urine off of the floor when the fat ass administrator gets too drunk to hit the mark? Well, someone would, and I bet we'd find smarter ways for "blue collar jobs" to be fufilling. But... that's borders on equality and we wouldn't want that.

-Financial marginalization. They like 70-80% of the world's wealth to be under the control of less than 1% of the population. Why? Wealth is power. Don't want too many cooks in the kitchen because we may actually start making sense as a global community and stop doing stupid things to each other and live in an unprofitable peace where everyone has similar opportunities. We LIKE the class system, don't we? We actually do. It's a way of life.

-We like to underpay teachers. Under pay the ¤¤¤¤ out of them. Make their jobs MISERABLE. That way we always have a crisis KEEPING the effective teachers in public schools. We don't want people who do it well staying in the public school system too long, that may mean better educated kids, more kids in college... more kids that graduate from college, yet another kid just plain not there to grow up, become an alcoholic, and clean up executive urine.

Cynically yours...

~Dave

[~NightHalo]

Originally posted by Jupiter 4
[b]
what school at Cal are you in?


I am in the school of Letters and Science. I am double majoring in English and Interdepartmental Studies in mythology. Also I am minoring in creative writing.


The UCB has been pretty good to me. I have absolutely nothing in the way of finance nor do I have family. However, when UCB accepted me they made me an "independent" student and they made it so my school is paid for. Only after I graduate will I have to pay some loans. The only screwy thing is I can't work. If I work I lose my grants and of course if they hike the fees more I may not have enough to live on. So it is kinda a catch 22. Yet, as far as I can tell the students who do have financial contributions will be hit the hardest whereas a student like myself will still be taken care of under the financial aid program.
No matter what happens, I am just grateful I have been given what I have.
:)

[7red7]

Halo, I don't knock you in any way brother, I really don't...Bless you for having what you do, it's a gift I can't get...I'm happy for you because you unlike so may other students I've met in my years at college are not taking the system's financial aid for granted...Your pretty much a triple major!!! That says something about you...I know so many kids who don't care, never show up for classes, get horrid grades, and when I ask them why, the answer is simply, "It isn't my money". That pisses me off because I need that money they take for granted...I'm literally a starving student that would be homeless if it weren't for a gracious grandmother taking me in...I can't afford my own place, I can't afford tuition this coming Fall, and I still don't qualify for financial aid...Right now my fees at Rio Hondo are being waved, nothing more...Books still come out of my pocket every semester, and when I get to La Verne (where I've wanted to go since I was 14 years old) things change financially and I won't get any aid...Even being a student with a 3.5 and above average, it doesn't help me...

I'm actually considering moving out of California by the end of the year if I can manage to save enough money...Right now thats slim and none, but we'll see...

The irony of all of this comes with me also wanting to become an educator and teach in high schools and college...Look what I'm in for...

DAN

[~NightHalo]

Thank you Dan !

I really take it as a blessing for a few reasons really. I lived in a really bad environment before and I was nearly put into a foster home. However thanks to my grades and the intervention of my teachers in high school, they made it so I could live on my own until it was time to go to college. It was a hard senior year with moving around and such, but I worked as hard as I could. Then in the spring I was accepted into all of the UC's and I chose Berkeley. I was really afraid I wouldn't be able to go because I had no way of paying, but thanks to the hard work of my college counselor, she made it so the head financial aid lady at Berkeley would make me an independent and put me under a financial aid program. Then I graduated as valedictorian and I felt the utter relief of freedom at last!

So, what always got me through the bad times was my love of learning. What I always knew is that if I didn't learn I would end up stuck with the horrid things around me. I am just happy I can continue my passion.

No matter what happens, have faith in what you love and always persue your dreams.

Thanks!

[~labrat]

This is getting off the thread topic, but I just wanted to say NightHalo's story is really inspirational! I only wish more people realized that dreams can be achieved, but you have to work for them. If there's enough of a will, there will be a way. :D

[~NightHalo]

Thank you labrat! :)

[7red7]

I agree Halo, thanks so much for sharing your story with us...It is an inspiration, and anyone who needs a good example of what kind of ethic and outlook toward learning to have, they can look at your post as that example...

I did the same...Graduated with honors (far from valedictorian, but still above a 4.0 average), and had to go straight into a community college because unfortunately the counselors at my high school weren't too keen on actually giving a damn and helping me out...I had to fight to get into AP honors classes my senior year in school, and get written agreement from the teachers themselves to let me in, my counselors always told me no. I even had one counselor go as far as saying "your white, look where you live, because of your ethnicity, you'll never be given financial aid. You're better off joining the military, it's you're only chance at a decent future." No joke she said that to me...I always ignored it, but I found the humor in the fact that I wasn't the cliche burb living white kid-he he he!!! Far from white trash, but not anywhere rich either *LOL*

It's okay, I'm making due...And in getting us back on topic, this budget thing will only slow me down for a moment...I'll figure out a way to get my education in La Verne, I'll just have to bite down and get bank loans to pay for it, or apply for some grants I haven't thought of yet :)

DAN

[~NightHalo]

That sounds like a really horrid "counselor" Dan. Have you tried getting the Cal grant? It isn't much but I believe it is available to all who apply for it with a reasonable GPA.

[test]

I got good grades throughout my bachelor degree days. I *never* qualified for anything other loans because my parents made too much money. :( I hated the fact that my parents income decided whether or not I would get a grant. They didn't pay for any of my school. I did. I guess it's just another way to keep the state from having to actually help out its residents who want to go to college. grrrrrrrr!!!!!!!

[~Efreak]

I dropped out of college... And... Ummmm. Beauty school. Start singin' "Grease" fans! ;)
Jamie

[test]

"Beauty school drop out, Beauty school drop out..." I used to know all the words when I was 6 1/2 years old, but that was many, many years ago. :laugh:

[~Efreak]

Dammit, Steph! That was a joke! That's okay. I hear it almost every time when I mention that. I like you, so I'll let it pass.... This time. ;) :laugh:
Jamie

[7red7]

Originally posted by NightHalo
That sounds like a really horrid "counselor" Dan. Have you tried getting the Cal grant? It isn't much but I believe it is available to all who apply for it with a reasonable GPA.


Unfortunately I have the same problem Steph had...I did qualify for the Cal Grant at one time...I received a "very"small amount that didn't cover the cost of all of my books, and last year I received a letter fromt he state saying that I no longer qualified for it due to the fact that I make too much money at my job now...Funny, they base everything around my income rather than my parents, and I'm still too rich to get some financial assistance *LOL* These people are a joke...But like I said, I'll deal and move on...Where theres a will theres a way I guess :)

Oh and Jamie, you're such a beauty school dropout!!! :p ;)

DAN

[test]

Just get as many loans as you can, Dan. I did. The funny thing for me is I got MORE loan money for Grad school than I did for my undergrad years.

[7red7]

True, very true I plan on getting a lot of loans to pay for things...The only trouble with loans are you have to pay them back...I'm a bit scared about being in serious debt for the rest of my life :laugh:

DAN

[test]

Actually, the loan people are very helpful. The interest rates are super low and you can pay it over 10 years or longer. I need to go the longer route because they want more than I can afford to give them now, but it will all work out in the end.

[7red7]

Thanks Steph, hearing from you that it can be simple is helpful, it really is :) If you can do it, so can I :D

DAN

[test]

Yeah, it really is simple. They will help you work out payments to fit your budget. I just need to call them and set it all up. I also am going to refinance my casa and get a little nest egg built up. :D

[7red7]

Thats great Steph...We just did the same here, and it pays off believe me :)

DAN

[~Kirlian Blue]

well im paying off for My University Education as that C**t tony Blair hates English People and I mean English People as the Scottish,Welsh Get free Higher Education and I had to pay ....come to think of it if your an Asylum Seeker in Briatain you get everything for nothing...........I cant care less if some lefty pratt calls me a racist for what ive just quoted as in Britain you get arrested for speaking the truth i am no racist but i would do what the romans done and send Scottish pratts like the whole of the labour party back to scotland over Hadrians wall and shoot em if they tryed to come back ...welll funny 1997 bLAIR BOMBED iRAQ IN A SECRET War .............He is a war criminal and a racist lets have him jailed for life!!!!

[test]

Originally posted by Efreak
Dammit, Steph! That was a joke! That's okay. I hear it almost every time when I mention that. I like you, so I'll let it pass.... This time. ;) :laugh:
Jamie

Duuuuuude, you brought it up, so you asked for it. :laugh: ;)