Roe Vs Wade and on...

[~fen]

http://www.marchforchoice.org/content/index.php?pid=30
http://slate.msn.com/id/2084278/

whatever your stance...keep a level head.

[~intro]

I find it hilarious and hypocritical that most abortion rights activists are liberal. Liberals run around preaching how we should not kill innocent people or do anything to hurt anyone. Yet when it comes to killing unborn children, they're first in line to say it's their right and no one should argue it.

So what makes it wrong to kill an Iraqi and okay to kill an unborn child? I don't get it.

And I'm not looking for a fight here, looking for mature conversation about this. I just honestly don't understand it. I'm against killing anyone unless absolutely necessary. So, in my opinion, I say don't kill the Iraqi and don't kill the unborn child.

-Mark
www.djintrovert.com

[~cliffwalk]

Originally posted by intro
I find it hilarious and hypocritical that most abortion rights activists are liberal. Liberals run around preaching how we should not kill innocent people or do anything to hurt anyone. Yet when it comes to killing unborn children, they're first in line to say it's their right and no one should argue it.

So what makes it wrong to kill an Iraqi and okay to kill an unborn child? I don't get it.

And I'm not looking for a fight here, looking for mature conversation about this. I just honestly don't understand it. I'm against killing anyone unless absolutely necessary. So, in my opinion, I say don't kill the Iraqi and don't kill the unborn child.

-Mark
www.djintrovert.com

My answer is simple and it's my value system.. while I'm a "LIBERAL" politically... this is >MY< stance on two topics..

(a) It's wrong to kill anyone without reason. I'm yet to be satisfied with the reason we went to war with Iraq and there hasn't been a shred of evidence put forth that President Bush has any clue what he's doing OR that the Iraqi War accomplished anything but level a few more cities. Moreover I don't think we accomplished anything in Afghanistan either. Moreover, Bush SR, didn't accomplish jack &^%$ in Panama.

I actually have no problem with force if it's required. I'm yet to see it wielded with the respect it deserves by any administration since probably Roosevelt.

(b) I am "PRO CHOICE" for several reasons. I believe that there are several "WHAT IFS" that justify having the medical ability to perform an abortion available as a medical procedure. Rape is only one of many. Being diagnosed with Cancer in the middle of a pregnancy is another....

When it is used purely to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. (Read: Birth Control) I have an ETHICAL problem with that. I think it's irresponsible. BUT, I'd rather know that pregnancy has been terminated and that potentially VERY BAD parent wont have a child to screw up.

Neither issue is black and white.

Dave

[~fen]

i'd like to add...
i understand in making points, other issues come into play, but please TRY to stay on topic...not that the entries above have strayed too far.

intro, you bring up some points with which i agree. youre right, it doesnt add up. i know plenty of people that are pro Choice and anti Dealth Penalty (such as myself depending my mood sometimes), throw on top of that im a vegetarian (not vegan). these are things/issues/standings within myself with which im trying to come to terms. it's not easy or simple.
though, i feel men can not stand back and say to women, "sure...whatever you want." that's a total cop-out if you ask me. conversely, we can not dictate, by law, what women can or can not do with their bodies. that would be sexist through and through.
in PA (dont know about other states) a husband can not stop his wife from having an abortion if she so decides. now, if people are legally married, i feel there should be some leeway there for the husband, if he wants to stop it. this, in a state where alimony exists (go out and get your own job. it's called dignity and self respect....im speaking from the fact that my own mother lived off my child support check). i find it absurd really.
there is no easy answers...but word has it that women are the only ones that can give birth in the first place :P, so it kind of gives them the advantage of the bat.....
cliffwalk...good point about the birth control angle being a total lack of responsibility.

[~Brand New Idol]

Always the men commenting, hey boys it's not a mans world . . Decision was made to stop people from killing themselves, yes woman were killing themselves by getting back alley abortions. It's just a fact of life you either like it or you don't, but it's a choice men don't need to make so let the women decide people.

[~cliffwalk]

Originally posted by Brand New Idol
Always the men commenting, hey boys it's not a mans world . .

See, UNTIL I became 1/2 of a the responsibility for bringing children into this world, I would have totally had this stance. "It's the womans body in play, what the hell do I have to say about it?"

Given the history, I agree, we needed to control what was going on anyways. The health-care industry's justification for fighting for the legalization of abortion was a duct-tape solution, really... People are getting bad drugs because they aren't governed... does that make a case for legalizing drugs?

But back to men not really owning part of this. I'm the father. I emotionally, spiritually, and physically have a stake in giving birth. While I agree that it's my wife's body that the child is carried in and in the end... if she had decided to leave me and get an abortion: who am I to stop that? Legally: no one. I can't stop it and if I took it to court I'd have no rights. Do I even have a attributable "HUMAN" right that imbues me any say so in the matter?

No, this is where civilization, ethics, and spirituality take over where the law cannot.

Again: There's NOTHING black and white about this issue. There's no answers and it isn't just a woman's issue by a large stretch. Sorry, it just isn't.

Dave

[~NukleoN]

The problem is partially in the definition. Some people would call a 3 day old embryo an 'unborn child', which it most certainly isn't...it's a developing embryo.

There are degrees here...aborting an 8 month old fetus is much different from terminating a 2 week-old pregnancy, but there are already laws in place where women cannot just abort any time they feel like it. I do agree that there should be a cutoff period around viability...and of course, I believe birth control is an effective measure against abortion, however, the same people who are against abortion are often against birth control!

I do feel it is the woman's right to choose.

If a woman cannot retain control of her own body, then who should have that control, the government? The church? Neither, in my opinion.

It's not a lot different than the government recognizing who is allowed to marry whom, who can have sex with whom (assuming two or more consenting adults) or what chemicals you are legally allowed to ingest. The intended irony here is that the government already makes moral decisions which it has no business making.

Frankly, I'd like to see the government stay as much out of our business as possible, as the track record with legislated morality is riddled with failure and at best, is simply unrealistic.

Some people may want to outlaw all forms of abortion, but then we may as well start forcing women to wear berkas, lest they tempt men to impregnate them in the first place.

The sooner we come out from under the clutches of those still living in the Dark Ages, the better.

[~intro]

Guess I'll throw my two cents in since I kinda stirred this pot. I'm neither liberal or conservative. I consider myself a centrist. I'm usually trying to throw large objects at people on both sides of the battle :).

I don't think abortion is something that should be allowed to whoever wants it. And I don't feel it's a woman's right to choose. She can do what she likes with her own body, but when she becomes pregnant (once the embryo reaches the point of viability, more on this in a second), the unborn child is another body inside of her. It's not her body, it's the child's body, she just has a rather powerful position over it.

My reason for calling abortion the murder of an unborn child is a matter of chance. The point of viability is not something that has been set in stone. It's not something we can determine with 100% accuracy. And I'd rather not take the risk. It's like a liberal's idea of war (where we warn a country two weeks in advance, give them drawn maps of the areas we plan to bomb and tell them to clear out). We go bomb an area, and yeah, there shouldn't be anything alive there before we go. But there might be. Is it right to press the button anyway?

I'm not sure who should be allowed to make the decision. But it bothers me that this problem exists. If abortion weren't seen as a form of last minute birth control then I'd be fine with it. In fact, I support birth control methods 100% (and I wrap it every time, thank you very much). I just can't stand these girls who go around having unprotected sex and then get an abortion rather than deal with the consequences of their actions.

It's called responsibility, a word that's all but disappeared in this nation. No one wants to take responsibility for anything these days, they just want to blame everyone else. This is evidenced by the increasing number of absolutely pathetic lawsuits in this country (did you see the fat girl suing McDonald's?), Andrea Yates murdering her children and blaming her husband for it, etc. No one wants to step up and deal with the situation they've either created for themselves or allowed themselves to fall into.

I don't want to outlaw all forms of abortion. But I don't want it to run rampant either. And I speak from experience on this. I was almost aborted. I was an "accident," so to speak, and I almost never was. Had my mother been granted her wish, I wouldn't be here to annoy the crap out of the satanic b i t c h e z (and the rest of you) with my constant Junkie XL and abortion posts :).

So yeah, that's my opinion as a centrist. Parties be damned. Let every man think for himself and not follow blindly in the footsteps of a Bush or a Clinton.

-Mark
www.djintrovert.com

[Electroswank]

My view is simple... as a single woman, it's MY BODY / MY CHOICE.

If i were married it would probably be different and I am sure that my husband would have a lot to do with whatever my choice would be.

I do not think its fair or right that men, who have no idea what it's like to be a young, single mother know what life can be like with a child/children and shouldn't be making the rules for women to follow or to punish women who do choose aborting an embryo that hasn't even formed into a fetus.

Granted, tho I do think there are plenty of young women out there who use abortion as 'birth control' and that's not right (to me). But also take into consideration the number of men who fiegn responsibilty and make empty promises when a woman is pregnant and just dumps them after the kid is born, leaving them to struggle on thier own.

sorry to stray off the original topic...
xo, anna

[~amyagogo]

Originally posted by intro

I'm not sure who should be allowed to make the decision. But it bothers me that this problem exists...I just can't stand these girls who go around having unprotected sex and then get an abortion rather than deal with the consequences of their actions.

No one wants to step up and deal with the situation they've either created for themselves or allowed themselves to fall into.

I just have to laugh for a second here... *laughing*

Firstly, "these girls who go running around having unprotected sex" wouldn't be having it if you guys stepped up to the plate and carried your responsibilities too...ok? It takes two to tango, and you know what? You fellas have this thing called pressure that you give girls, this need to spread your seed, divide and conquer, whatever the hell you want to call it...i'm not saying ALL men are like this, but i would be curious how many of you guys out there used a condom your first or second or even third time...

Secondly, if you as a man want to take full responsibility financially and emotionally for raising a child if the woman gets pregnant , and doesn't want it, then knock yourselves out...that would be refreshing, but i don't think it happens very often...

Thirdly, no man has a right to tell me what to do with my body...not even my male gynecologist, and certainly not a judge. Men can't even imagine the turmoil that goes on inside a woman's head, let alone her body, and until men start sprouting uteruses and manufacturing estrogen, you really can't begin to understand a woman. You think there is a woman out there who had an abortion with a clear conscious, who never felt a moment of regret in her life for having one? OF COURSE NOT, i don't care who she is or what walk of life she comes from or the circumstances involved. This is the "gift" that women are given, and to take that gift for granted and do something so rash out of irresponsibility on behalf of the actions of two people is one of the most devastating things that can happen to a woman...

So please, don't tell me or any other woman what she can or cannot do...

[~NukleoN]

Hello there,

Apparently I am far too opinionated to know better, but I'll address some of your points, Mark.

I wholeheartedly agree that abortion should never be used as birth control, in fact, I find it to be a last resort as would most reasonable people.

However, as disagreeable as I think it is, I think it is perhaps almost as disagreeable for the government to exert control over a woman's body in such a fashion. Taking this logic further, should the government decide how many kids you are allowed to have? What if you're deemed too irresponsible to have *any* kids? It doesn't stop there...what if it is decided that only married people can have kids? What if single people are no longer allowed to room together in hotels? You see the trend? We'd be going right back to the 50's, and then, back to the Dark Ages.

Again, I do find abortion to be a woman's choice, and I would hope that we as a society can educate people about their choices, be that abortion, drug use, prostitution (when sex can be legally given away for free), etc.

I don't think throwing laws at the problem will solve it, in fact, history bears out that the problem will be much worse if driven underground. Do you think women will suddenly stop getting abortions because it's illegal? We only need look to our own history with prohibition to see the failure of these types of laws...and the drive of some women to terminate a pregnancy would far outweigh someone wanting a drink at a speakeasy.

I suspect that many more people (nearly half a million a year) die from smoking, which is legal, albeit, somewhat controlled. Should this be outlawed as well? I certainly don't think so...but it's probably wise to stop smoking for those who partake (for health reasons, at the very least).

Nobody likes abortion...and I believe society should continue to educate people as to their sexual choices (including birth control), but often, the same people who are anti-choice are also anti birth control AND, anti sex education. Some would maintain that we teach only abstinence, but that's completely unrealistic.

Abortion is a fact of life, and yes, it even occurs naturally (we carefully call it 'miscarriage'). Hopefully education will prevent the trauma of abortion without sloppily stripping away more rights.

[~intro]

Nukleon, you and I just disagree, but it's cool that we can talk about it reasonably.

Amy, don't blame the guys and their pressure. That's BS. If you don't want to have sex without a condom, then don't do it. Don't point the finger at the guy. It's the responsibility of both parties, not the responsibility of the male.

Financial responsibility is something I'd be willing to deal with if I got a girl pregnant. I thought I had gotten a girlfriend pregnant at one point (it later turned out to be a false alarm), and I was more than willing to do everything necessary to raise the child and take responsibility for my mistake (which wasn't quite a mistake, it was a broken condom).

Lastly, if you live in this country, you follow the rules set up by its government. It's the way it works. This is a government of, by and for the people, but if the people speak and you don't like it, you can either follow the rules or leave. Therefore, if a judge tells you what to do, you're kinda bound by law. Not that I haven't thought about leaving this country before. There are a few things going on (especially as of late) that I disagree with.

-Mark
www.djintrovert.com

[~NukleoN]

Without question, the best solution here is to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place...better sex education is, hopefully, leading us in that direction.

True, we have laws set forth which we must abide by. Therefore, stop having oral sex. Technically, it's illegal in many states. Women should not stand by streetlights after 5PM in other jurisdictions...completely illegal...but not enforced. Why aren't these laws enforced? They're completely impractical...though once in a while, we do hear of someone being arrested for 'cursing' in the presence of a woman or child.

While we should generally abide by the laws of the land, other laws encroach too far upon personal rights or are outdated...and many people with moral agendas are making as many laws as they can to keep others living by their moral system. This is why it's very scary when we have moral legislators in the Supreme Court...they tend to strip away rights, unraveling years of progress.

Morality is not absolute, and our laws will never please everyone.

[Electroswank]

bottom line is basically, if you were never in that position, you will never understand what it's like to make that choice.

no one has the right to tell what to do with my body.

[~intro]

I'm just telling you not to kill someone Anna. That's all. Whether I've been in the position or not, I feel that I have the right to tell you not to kill.

Nukleon is right. There are lots of ridiculous laws. Laws against oral sex won't stop me. But I support laws restricting abortion (though not banning it outright, my biggest point of argument with ¤¤¤¤ing conservatives).

And sex education is key. We really need to get on the ball with that. It pisses me off that some people are anti abortion and anti birth control/sex ed at the same time. It makes no sense.

-Mark
www.djintrovert.com

[~NullDevice]

This is a debate that has many, many grey areas. Just when you think you've got a nice, clear-cut point to say "i'm against x but for y" some exception crops up.

Just to make things more complicated, let's throw RU-486 into the mix. Is it "abortion used as birth control" (which most people thus far have seemed to regard with disdain) when someone takes a "morning after" pill?

I've seen the phrase "point of viability" come up several times. Uh, when is that, exactly? Medicine is now to the point where a premature baby/fetus can be kept alive littlerally months before a complete term. But...this sort of thing isn't cheap. So there're socioeconomic factors, too - a baby born preamturely to a family without access to the latest medical technology has almost zero viability until the last month or so. Do we enforce the same "point of viability" standards we would to someone who has access to Cedars-Sinai? Maybe yes, maybe no.

And then in certain religious interpretations, even the "idea" of a child is sacred, so birth control is tantamount to murder. And when you touch yourself, the saints cry.

Sex education will help a whooooole lot. But it too is not a be-all and end-all. I mean, accidents happen too. You can have the most educated safe-sex around, but if you're that .01% of cases the pill doesn't work and the condom breaks or whatever...well, all the education in the world isn't going to prevent that.

There's even a bit of fuzziness to say that the government shouldn't lelgislate morality. Yeah, throughout history, institutionalized morality has been a colossal failure in many, many cases. But a few - cold-blooded murder, for example - are fairly necessary. Where is the line drawn?

There're cultural aspects too. Some parts of the world look at he debate in the US and say "what's the big deal? It's all so clear-cut" on both sides of the issue.

It's really not a liberal/conservative issue. I know deep liberals who are pro-life and staunch conservatives that are pro-choice. It's a heavily philosophical debate, and much of it comes down to definitions of "life" and "death" and such things that philosophers and theologians have been debating literally for millenia.

Hence, this debate will go on and on and on and on and on.

[~Paradoxxx]

Originally posted by intro

you what to do, you're kinda bound by law. Not that I haven't thought about leaving this country before. There are a few things going on (especially as of late) that I disagree with.


Feel free to come here. Europe loves you already. ;)
Plus we have enough of a messy diversity of laws all over the different countries that I'm sure you can find a nice country with abortions laws that suit your needs. :)

I may be late in replying to this, but I've only noticed this thread now, so... :D

On the abortion issue... basically I'm sorry that each case can't be analysed properly and with enough time. Thing is, babies don't stop growing while we debate on what to do with them. My views are not black and white, and while I think in some cases the woman should not be allowed to have an abortion at all, in other cases I think she should even be forced to have one as soon as they got pregnant.
I don't know if it's more irresponsible to get pregnant by accident because one was drunk, or to get pregnant of a 10th baby when one already has 9 children and no resources to feed even 2 of them.

[Synthpopalooza]

I would like to add my 5 cents in:

* In Romania, under Nicolae Ceaucescu's brutal regime, all forms of birth control were outlawed. Women were even forced to line up to be examined by state doctors to check whether they had been using contraception. The birth rate skyrocketed, and of course many of these children were born with AIDS.

* On the other extreme, in China, the policy is forced abortion, a policy put in place by the totalitarian government there as a means to keep the population under control.

Put simply, when the government interferes with a woman's choice, these are the results. I agree there should be more education on alternatives to abortion, but you cannot outlaw it outright ... nor do you make it mandatory. The above two examples both point to the government meddling about with women's right to choose, and it's entirely despicable.

[~amyagogo]

I just find it interesting that men have so much to say about this topic when it will NEVER be something that they themselves have to physically go through...you will NEVER be faced with the choice, the decision, the mental anguish, the guilt, the fear, the risk, the self-hatred, the pain, the humiliation, the judgement...yet you have no trouble at all telling us what you would or would not do if you got someone pregnant. It's not all up to you, and it's not going to affect YOU for the rest of your life like it does a woman...i don't care how you put it...

Yes, you certainly can have your opinions, and since men run the government anyway i guess you get to make the rules too, but don't tell a woman what is right and what is wrong for her and her body and expect us to NOT fight for the choice...

And for the record, i'm ALL for the death penalty...

[~NullDevice]

Well, *anyone* can have an opinion.

I dunno, I know a number of women who are very, very emphatic about guys having opinions on this particular subject. Most guys in fact do take the "it'll never be my decision, ergo I shouldn't have an opinion" and I think that looks to a lot of women as a complete cop-out (probably because most guys use it as such). It's not a man's choice, no, but it is a man's responsibility to not be ignorant, insensitive, or a complete fscking idiot.

Whatever the opinions, at least the debate here is (so far) educated and rational and hasn't degraded to dogmatic bickering. Someone with a rational understanding of the issues on either side is going to be much more respectful of your choice and opinion than someone who isn't aware of the issues.

[~cliffwalk]

Originally posted by amyagogo
Yes, you certainly can have your opinions, and since men run the government anyway i guess you get to make the rules too, but don't tell a woman what is right and what is wrong for her and her body and expect us to NOT fight for the choice...

we do tell women what they can/can't do with their bodies through legislation.

we tell humans what they can/can't do with their bodies.

the "government part" of this problem, in my opinion, is the smallest splinter known to man (thus hard to remove):

read 200+ year old literature on human rights and decide whether or not it's fair to legislate biology.

if i had the decision to make as an official i would say, across the board, let people choose their own fates. stop tying to define viability.

let morality decide that because bottom line is that "VIABILITY" doesn't mean the baby can live without the mother.

a woman has to be 26 weeks pregnant before there's even a MEDICAL CHANCE a baby can live outside of the womb. if a woman goes into labor any earlier than that they usually don't even TRY to save the baby if it's born early.

as for how to handle this ethically/morally. to me that's the biggest problem in this country. we spend so much time focused on trying to legislate morality that it gets in the way of having true "thought leadership"/spiritual guidance to make its way into the lives of people.

maybe there would be a lot less of A LOT of bad ¤¤¤¤ in this world if we concentrated more effort on NOT raising boys and girls with no idea what it REALLY means to have casual sex.

maybe the undereducated wouldn't be getting pregnant if we were concentrating on building communitees that openly discussed such "delicate matters".

and as an aside... maybe to keep the hormones at bay they could integrate tantric sex into the human sexuality curricullum in high school so the foreplay is better and people stay clear of the coiter interactus.

not always classy but i do my thing,

dave

[~fen]

amyagogo: I just find it interesting that men have so much to say about this topic when it will NEVER be something that they themselves have to physically go through

-tell that to the husbands (and boyfriends) that i referrenced above. yes, granted they dont have the actual abortion but they take part in what got them there...1, cant have a pregnancy w/out a sperm (unless you believe the christians), and 2, theres an actual psychological/emotional attachment by the men regardless of whether or not they (or the women) acknowledge it.


also...i agree with the lack of education/dialogue being a major factor in pregnancies for teens. for adults...piss off, no excuse. wrap it or use your hand. the lack of education/dialogue also contributes to std's etc. we all know this so why is it still happening?


cliffwalk: if we concentrated more effort on NOT raising boys and girls with no idea what it REALLY means to have casual sex.

- maybe if we concentrated on raising boys to be men rather than overgrown boys...a woman should be treated with the greatest respect and appreciation....AND CONVERSELY...raising girls to use their heads, instead of their bodies for 'acceptance,' raising girls to defend themselves against boys and their insistance, and raising girls as women who respect and appreciate men (not overgrown boys).

maybe if we showed kids the details in an abortion, they'd be more cautious in the future. do you think children cant handle it? yet, another part of the problem if you ask me...adults underestimating children.

[~cliffwalk]

Originally posted by fen
also...i agree with the lack of education/dialogue being a major factor in pregnancies for teens. for adults...piss off, no excuse. wrap it or use your hand. the lack of education/dialogue also contributes to std's etc. we all know this so why is it still happening?

- maybe if we concentrated on raising boys to be men rather than overgrown boys...

when i was 20 years old i went to hang out at the new apartment of a high shool friend... his parents are very rich and had put him up in it...

this is a 20 year old kid, private school educated, multi-millionaire parents.... and a virgin at 20.

for the sake of brevity I'll simply cut to the punchline of the conversation:

me: "wait, you think that you can just have sex and then go to the pharmacy the following morning and pick up 'the pill'?"

him: "yeah"

me: "i'll be right back, i'm going to go get you some condoms from my car, you need to have them, they may be a little big on you but...(comic relief because this gets ugly)"

him: "[the girl] is a virgin also, she wont have any diseases"

me: "have you discussed your 'birth control plan' with her?"

him: "yes, she agrees she wants it to be natural since it's our first time, we'll just go get the pill"

me: "how old is she?"

him: "19, she's starts pre-med at Northwestern in the fall"

me: "hmm... ok... we need to have a LONG talk..."

him: "i know what i'm doing, i bought 'the joy of sex'"

me: "did you pick up a copy of 'the joy of parenthood' along with it?"

[Conversation lasted well into the evening, thank god]

This was about 12-13 years ago but still...

Two kids, rich parents, educated at two of the finest private (CATHOLIC) schools in the country.

100% true story.

Dave

[~intro]

I agree that amyagogo is completely off base in saying that a man has no right to have an opinion. The fact that this is America and we're all entitled to an opinion aside, fen nailed it down rather well. To say that a man has no emotional or personal stake in the abortion issue is, well... stupid. I can't think of a better word to describe it.

I've never had to go through it, but at one point I was preparing myself to, and that was bad enough. I can't imagine actually having to do it. I believe the guilt would rip me apart.

-Mark
www.djintrovert.com

[~amyagogo]

Originally posted by amyagogo
I just find it interesting that men have so much to say about this topic when it will NEVER be something that they themselves have to physically go through...you will NEVER be faced with the choice, the decision, the mental anguish, the guilt, the fear, the risk, the self-hatred, the pain, the humiliation, the judgement...yet you have no trouble at all telling us what you would or would not do if you got someone pregnant. It's not all up to you, and it's not going to affect YOU for the rest of your life like it does a woman...i don't care how you put it...

Yes, you certainly can have your opinions, and since men run the government anyway i guess you get to make the rules too, but don't tell a woman what is right and what is wrong for her and her body and expect us to NOT fight for the choice...

And for the record, i'm ALL for the death penalty...

Here, Mark, i just wanted to quote MYSELF for you to read cos you apparently didn't before...

Nowhere do i say that you "can't" have an opinion...and nowhere do i say that you don't have ANY emotional reaction...now you're just attacking me personally, and that's just, well to use your word...stupid.

[~cliffwalk]

Originally posted by amyagogo


Here, Mark, i just wanted to quote MYSELF for you to read cos you apparently didn't before...

Nowhere do i say that you "can't" have an opinion...and nowhere do i say that you don't have ANY emotional reaction...now you're just attacking me personally, and that's just, well to use your word...stupid.

*sniff* but enough about you, no one commented on my story ;)

dave

[~Jupiter 4]

Catholic school graduates worry me more than anyone...I liked your story, Cliffy.

[~amyagogo]

Awww... so sorry, Dave, i didn't mean to steal your thunder *hugs*

[~Paradoxxx]

Originally posted by cliffwalk

him: "i know what i'm doing, i bought 'the joy of sex'"


HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH!
Catholics are funny people... not just catholics... religious people in general. And rich religious people, or if not rich at least confortable enough in life, those are even more funny.

I can't talk of other countries since I don't know exactly what goes on in there, but I can give you an example of Portugal, where the most active persons against the voluntary interruption of pregnancy have always been very catholic right wing individuals (mostly woman) that are doing well in life.

They wouldn't have to really think of the financial consequences of having a new baby arriving unexpectedly because for the most part they swim in money. The danger of them getting pregnant are almost non existent since they regard sex as some gift from the devil and never have any (plus their husbands wouldn't ask them for any also since they're also very religious or else have enough affairs with their secretaries).

The curious detail here is that, when the daughters of those rich families have "an accident" and get pregnant at 18 years old (rich catholic girls also like to have fun) they drop all "pro life" values to avoid the shame in the family (admiting that our little girl was fooling around like any vulgar wh@re? never!). They just take a short trip to the UK or Spain, go shopping for some new clothes, and woops(!!) there goes an abortion in a private clinic with proper conditions, where their identity is kept secret under medical secrecy, and they just come back with a few bags of new clothes as if nothing else had happend.
People without resources to travel to another country, have to do it without proper medical assistance, in the most clandestine possible conditions and putting their life at risk sometimes due to all sorts of health complications that can come from a badly done service.

[Electroswank]

Abortion has always been a very loaded debate topic - look at what happened on this very thread. It will always be a battle of the sexes.... men who make "rules" will always think they have all the right answers and don't care to see a womans' side of the situation no matter how she feels.

I know we are all entitled to our own opinions here - but just going off on someone that they seem to have a gripe with outside the boards is MY job ;)

- anna

*sigh* we need a "pissy" mood icon! lol

[~cliffwalk]

Originally posted by ElectroSwank
men who make "rules" will always think they have all the right answers and don't care to see a womans' side of the situation no matter how she feels.

I know we are all entitled to our own opinions here - but just going off on someone that they seem to have a gripe with outside the boards is MY job ;)

Oh if we want to redirect this thread to slightly less ugly waters... :)

My "favorite" quote from my days of working for a company that was very much an "OLD BOYS CLUB" was:

"Remember my sage advice, David, women are exactly like men if you take away rationality and accountability."

*cocks gun and shoots out his left nut*

Now let's talk about my career. I'm a rather "HIGH-END ENGINEERING RESOURCE". What I do on a day to day basis gets rather technical. I am almost ALWAYS managed by people with significantly less technical expertise than I am. ALWAYS. Why? The people with technical expertise on my level get paid more when they choose to continue DOING as opposed to "MANAGING". Plain and simple.

That being said. I've had male and female managers throughout my career. Both managers that have been "Administrative Managers" (in charge of making sure I play nice with others and do my paperword) and "Project Managers" (in charge of managing me through a chain of events).

It's always a challenge to manage people who have significant skillsets that you don't even understand.

Strangely enough all of the male managers I've had have always felt threatened by that and end up being ineffective managers to me because they try to make it appear as if they are in some way or another "superior" to me.

My female managers have always taken a different and much wiser approach. They don't try to be "be better than me"... they try to be a better MANAGER than me. (Which is what I need them to do) Ironic how the best managers I've had have been females who treat me as an equal as opposed to men who only feel empowered when they subjugate.

This is a historical thing. There are volumes of antropology books written on this very topic. Why is it so fascinating to me? If you go back into history far enough you'll realize that most ancient societies used to be "Matriarchical" (ruled by women).

Historically oppression, colonization, and violence have been products of male rule, not female rule.

UNFORTUNATE Byproduct: More and more women are starting to rule like men. Men don't care if a woman is in charge as long as she runs things like she was a man. That sucks. Men and women are different for a reason.

Sorry... I'm observing (and subsequently having to dance around) the politics of men and women in equal managerial roles. I hate it. I think the number one cause of failed marriages, bad policy, and an overall stalemate in this world is this problem.

Does it relate back to Abortion? I think so.

Dave

[~intro]

Originally posted by amyagogo


Here, Mark, i just wanted to quote MYSELF for you to read cos you apparently didn't before...

Nowhere do i say that you "can't" have an opinion...and nowhere do i say that you don't have ANY emotional reaction...now you're just attacking me personally, and that's just, well to use your word...stupid.

I did read it. You're basically saying that it's all on the woman and the man has no repercussions from it at all. And, as I said, that's bull¤¤¤¤. I responded to what you wrote. You just didn't like my response.

Not to mention the whole "You're a man, you can't understand" argument is a total cop out.

As is typical when you two get involved, this conversation is reducing itself to lame insults and weak ass arguments. Therefore, it's back to Cubase for me. Later.

-Mark
www.djintrovert.com

[Electroswank]

"lame insults"?
correct me if i am wrong, Mark, but weren't you the one who called me and Amy as "Ice B i c h e s" in another thread?

"weak ass arguments"?
In that aspect - this entire discussion in itself is a "lame ass argument" because, as i have stated earlier, unless you have had an abortion, you really don't know what it's like and all people end up doing is basing an opinion off of a speculation of what they perceive to be the right thing to do or predict their what their intentions would be.

"the whole "You're a man, you can't understand" argument is a total cop out."
I honestly don't think it is. Very much like I wouldn't know what it's like to have a penis, you don't know what it's like to have menstrual cycle, Mark.

Like you said - everyone is entitled to an opinon. You vented yours the same way we did.

[~cliffwalk]

Ice ¤¤¤¤¤es???

Mark, I have to admit, that was a ballsy thing to say... you realize that Anna has the power to jump out of your screen at night and weld your left nut to your knee cap, don't you?

[~Tim_BNI]

When did this place become Reproductogarden. Take this argument elsewhere please or I'll be force to b i tch slap all of you. And while you're at it, go make me a sandwich.

[~Vertitron]

It grieves me to think of the millions of unwanted children who were killed by abortion.

It grieves me to think that making abortion illegal probably won't accomplish much to curb the genocide (not to mention more "accidental" deaths of the mothers). Then again, maybe it will, but never enough.

It grieves me to think that the number of unwanted, neglected, and abused children more likely would increase if abortion were made illegal. (Even so, murder is the greater evil).

Sin and its consequences are grievous. I believe this is why the Bible records Jesus being a"Man of Sorrows."

[~Paradoxxx]

Originally posted by Vertitron
It grieves me to observe people do what is right in their own eyes, either ignorant or neglectful of the compassion of God, who created the beautiful gift of sex as the essence of marital intimacy. ("Drink water from your own cistern . . . Why . . . embrace the bosom of a stranger?"--Proverbs 5:15-21).

With all due respect for your beliefs, but your God may have created your gift of sex but did not create mine. I don't think I'm either ignorant or neglectful of anything here.
Don't grief for people doing what is right in their eyes... people who do what's right in the eyes of others are the ones we should pitty, because normally they live in dictature-like systems or lack freedom of some sort.
Also, isn't the essence of marital intimacy is love and not sex?

I do agree with the other points of your post, but this one... please allow me to not share your views.

[~Brand New Idol]

There you go, take a passage out of the bible and make it seem like sex is evil unless your married. I know plenty of married people that have had to deal with the issue of abortion and even had to go to that level of having one because they just didn't want to have children. Sex is a pleasurable experience and you don't need to be married to have sex I'm sorry.

Sex before marriage makes sex during marriage that much better you should try it, if god gave us the gift use it. Just because some book that is easily misconstrued says "Why . . . embrace the bosom of a stranger?" maybe it meant get to know the person first before you ¤¤¤¤ the Living ¤¤¤¤ Out Of Them!!

[~Tim_BNI]

You know there is a simple solution to all this sex and promiscuity and what not. We could always make it a law to hack those pesky nerves right out of our children's bits and pieces at birth. Maybe then we could all live a clean moral life free of that awful curse of animal instinct. Hey I'm sure someone can even "find" a passage in the bible to justify it.

[~cliffwalk]

HA! I can't go another inch into this discussion.

I'm all for premarital woopee.

"Why buy the cow when you get the milk fer free" (men version)

"Why buy the pig when you're getting porked for free" (female version)

I mean just ... oh... to each his/her own... I'm all about wrapping spirituality around families and relationships but keep them out of my bedroom and away from the boys.

I'm sorry, I'm so far away from even relating to literal translations of the bible like the one above... I can't relate.. I can't translate.. it makes no sense to my world.

peace out

dave

[Electroswank]

i dont subcribe to any particular religion so go ahead and pull out as many passages as you like - it still won't sway me, make me feel guilty or stop me from doing what i want with MY body.

i'm not going to turn this into a theological religous discussion - i have my own set of moralities and ethics to live by that are custom fit to my own personal beliefs and lifestyle. i don't need a book to live my life by.

We could always make it a law to hack those pesky nerves right out of our children's bits and pieces at birth. Maybe then we could all live a clean moral life free of that awful curse of animal instinct. Hey I'm sure someone can even "find" a passage in the bible to justify it.
if not, they'll just find one that's close and skew it to read what they want to believe.

[~Vertitron]

Originally posted by Paradoxxx


With all due respect for your beliefs, but your God may have created your gift of sex but did not create mine. I don't think I'm either ignorant or neglectful of anything here.
Don't grief for people doing what is right in their eyes... people who do what's right in the eyes of others are the ones we should pitty, because normally they live in dictature-like systems or lack freedom of some sort.

My apologies. I didn't mean to come across judgmental. I was just vocalizing my feelings, which I expect most not to understand. It just seems to me the world grieves the consequences of sin, but seldom condemns the cause--the sin--itself. But I don't expect the world to do such a thing.


Also, isn't the essence of marital intimacy is love and not sex?



Yes. And the culmination of that love physically and emotionally is expressed through sex. At least for men and women--animals do it by instinct just to propagate.

Originally posted by Brand New Idol
There you go, take a passage out of the bible and make it seem like sex is evil unless your married.

No. The Bible is consistently clear sex outside of marriage is a sin. But that is not to say I expect you to conform to the standard, unless you profess to be a Christian. But that is the standard by whichyou will be judged by God when you pass on, and if that gives you the heebeejeebees, then all by means, seek the forgiveness of God. But I hold nothing against you. In fact, I enjoy your music!

Originally posted by Tim_BNI
You know there is a simple solution to all this sex and promiscuity and what not. We could always make it a law to hack those pesky nerves right out of our children's bits and pieces at birth. Maybe then we could all live a clean moral life free of that awful curse of animal instinct. Hey I'm sure someone can even "find" a passage in the bible to justify it.

I thought you were not going to post to this thread! :)

And by the way, the Bible is just as adamant about married couples having frequent sex as it is about singles abstaining!

And you are far more than an animal. I heard it is painful for most animals... well, for the females, at least. :)

Originally posted by cliffwalk
I'm sorry, I'm so far away from even relating to literal translations of the bible like the one above... I can't relate.. I can't translate.. it makes no sense to my world.

...

dave

No apologies necessary! If there is any consolation, you are 100% theologically correct, so that is a good start! It is very difficult to understand the Bible unless you have been "born again," and God's Spirit has been placed in you. He gives you the understanding!

Originally posted by ElectroSwank
i dont subcribe to any particular religion so go ahead and pull out as many passages as you like - it still won't sway me, make me feel guilty or stop me from doing what i want with MY body.

Sorry, that is not my intention.



i'm not going to turn this into a theological religous discussion - i have my own set of moralities and ethics to live by that are custom fit to my own personal beliefs and lifestyle. i don't need a book to live my life by.



I imagine a serial rapist and a serial killer would say the same thing. Should we then not speak the truth and condemn his actions at risk of offending him?

Truth is always narrow--look at gravity. Seek the truth. I am certainly not going to disrespect you and force it upon you.


if not, they'll just find one that's close and skew it to read what they want to believe.

Unfortunately, that is common. But there are sound principles of interpretation, and those Pharisees are easily rebuked. But now we are getting way off topic!

[~Efreak]

Okay. This is just absolute silliness. (this is where you (Vertitron) might reply. "Oh, is it?"... or is it?)
As a Pagan, I adhere to my "Harm none" motto. BUT.
That pertains to ME.

*ME.*

Stick with what you know. Live by it. You are not going to save the world. You never will. Deal.

Women deal with consequences every day... Some that we men will *NEVER* understand. As a man, I am proud to admit that.


Originally posted by Vertitron
and those Pharisees are easily rebuked

Did you mean... fallacies?

Originally posted by Vertitron
I am certainly not going to disrespect you and force it upon you.

[/b]

Huh? What's the truth? WHO wrote that?

Jamie

[~Paradoxxx]

Originally posted by Vertitron



expect most not to understand. It just seems to me the world grieves the consequences of sin, but seldom condemns the cause--the sin--itself.


The concept of "sin" is in itself very associated to religious beliefs, so I won't go further into this...


Yes. And the culmination of that love physically and emotionally is expressed through sex. At least for men and women--animals do it by instinct just to propagate.


Yes and no. The culmination of love physically and emotionally CAN be sex but it's also a million other small things all put together, that can go from a simple kiss to doing dishes together. If for some reason 2 persons that love eachother can't have sex because they are distant from eachother or because one is physically unable due to an accident, disease, whatever, in your eyes does that make it a failed relationship?
You say animals do it by instinct to propagate... considering that according to some people's interpretation of the Bible, sex even in marriage, should be used only to procriate, is the bible trying to bring us down to the same level as other animals? I know I'm beeing difficult here, but it's to make the point that even for those who follow the bible things don't seem to be unanimous yet... after more than 2000 years.
Plus not all animals do it just to propagate. It seems that dolphins do it for pleasure also. Fiends from the pits of hell those dolphins are!! ;)


No. The Bible is consistently clear sex outside of marriage is a sin. But that is not to say I expect you to


Stupid example 1: Boat sinks in the ocean... man and woman survive and manage to reach a desert island. They fall in love with eachother (I'm talking LOVE here), BUT... disgrace(!), there's no priest or church around to perform their wedding! If they end up having sex... is that a sin?


But that is the standard by whichyou will be judged by God when you pass on, and if that gives you the


Mother Teresa once said "If you judge people, you have no time to love them.". Isn't this going against the idea that the christian/catholic God loves us?


It is very difficult to understand the Bible unless you have been "born again," and God's Spirit has been placed in you. He gives you the understanding!


I have heard people saying similar things about beeing on drugs. "You can't really understand it until you've tried it! It expands your mind! You see the world in a new way!"


Truth is always narrow--look at gravity. Seek the truth. I am certainly not going to disrespect you and force it upon you.


You won't because I am sure you are a nice respectful person, but the religious institutions are far less respectful than you are.

I won't post more on this thread concerning religious views. I sure like debating about religion 'cause it makes me understand better how people see the issue and helps others understand how I see it. If you'd like to continue this conversation I'd rather do it by e-mail so not to bother others with our conversation. this is a music forum after all, not a theological debate centre. :)

[~Vertitron]

Originally posted by Paradoxxx

I won't post more on this thread concerning religious views. I sure like debating about religion 'cause it makes me understand better how people see the issue and helps others understand how I see it.



Honestly, I am generally not interested in "debating religion"--at least when its objective it just to share opinions. If, however, you or anyone here is sincere in seeking the truth (and there logically could only be one truth) concerning spiritual matters, then I will gladly take the time to share what I know (or even don't know). For I once was a skeptic concerning Christianity, but now I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that the claims of Christ are absolutely true.



If you'd like to continue this conversation I'd rather do it by e-mail so not to bother others with our conversation. this is a music forum after all, not a theological debate centre. :)



Yes, I agreewe have digressed from the original topic of Roe vs. Wade. And I also recognize and respect that this forum is primarily about electronic music.

[~cliffwalk]

Originally posted by Vertitron
I imagine a serial rapist and a serial killer would say the same thing. Should we then not speak the truth and condemn his actions at risk of offending him?

I'm not going to sit here and play "pin the tail on the bible beater" but this is like comparing Apples to Melba Toast. Historically, condemnation has been another form of justifying colonization and marginilization.

The governments of European countries used (such as Spain) used their missionaries to turn thriving villages in Mesoamerica into third world countries.... how did they do these terrible things without even knowing it? By allowing themselves to over interpret dogma to the point of having all sorts of logical flaws that leaders could manipulate.

I'm not going to use the bible quote but how about let's just not judge. (yes condemning is judging)

MAYBE none of us are in any position to judge others.

Dave

[~fen]

Jesus is just alright with me. It's most of his followers i cant stand. he was a rebel in the purest sense, while his followers are complacent and yes men/women.
it's too bad his followers, in general, dont hear to what he has to say and live by it, rather than just interpreting and speaking 'in the name of'.
and as far as one truth...yeah, it runs through most spiritual theories (and not just christian), the same essential basis: a big flood, love/respect one another, dont kill.....oops the christians lost it on that last one...o, sorry about that pesky lil thing called the inquisition...it was 'in his name' afterall ;)

thanks and have a wonderful day...

[~gordonctrl]

i like jesus,

he stays crispy.....even in milk! :-P

brad

[~cliffwalk]

Originally posted by fen
Jesus is just alright with me. It's most of his followers i cant stand. he was a rebel in the purest sense, while his followers are complacent and yes men/women.
it's too bad his followers, in general, dont hear to what he has to say and live by it, rather than just interpreting and speaking 'in the name of'.
and as far as one truth...yeah, it runs through most spiritual theories (and not just christian), the same essential basis: a big flood, love/respect one another, dont kill.....oops the christians lost it on that last one...o, sorry about that pesky lil thing called the inquisition...it was 'in his name' afterall ;)

thanks and have a wonderful day...

me at the pearly gates:

"GOD BUDDY! Never met you in person but I've read all about the atrocities done in your name! Way to go! So where's that crazy long-haired son of yours"

(suddenly I feel myself falling really fast and the air getting hot... I hear god screaming from above: "That was my DAUGHTER you punk!")

"SATAN! I hear you can hook me up with some killer weed! If I'm stuck down here for eternity I might as well enjoy myself. "

Dave