Promotion Etiquette

[~David Vesel]

Hello all,

I want to get your thoughts on something. Is there such a thing as "promotion etiquette"? I.e. are there things that people do to promote themselves as artists that you find annoying, to the point where it would actually discourage you from checking out their music?

Or is it even something that an artist should concern themselves with? Is there such a thing as bad exposure?

Or....does it vary depending on the artist? Are lesser known artists more likely to be perceived as crossing some line of discretion that more well known artists wouldn't have held against them?

How do you handle your own promotion?

[~Quixote Chapter]

I think if you're going to promote yourself aggressively, then you must have an awesome sound/product to promote. And even then some modesty is in order. There's nothing worse then "best thing since sliced bread" promotion on a poor product, and this goes for any product, not just music. Of course musically people have varied taste, so no matter what your style is you can find your niche, just make sure the production is up to snuff.

-Kevin

[~Daft Monk]

Dishonesty is the biggest turn off for me when it comes to promotion. The classic example of this is the mp3.com email from someone saying "I love your music/station and I think you should check out my band" when you can check stats and tell that they never listened to anything. Promotion presented as promotion is fine with me, and one of the reasons I like the "news/announcements" section of EGN, but when someone stretches too far, as some here have done, by posting a reply to a thread about a new Depeche Mode song or something and saying, "well this song reminds me of how great my music is, so go to www.iamashamelessselfpromoter.com and buy my music." That's one way to guarantee that I will never check out your stuff, but I'm the sort of person who hangs up on telemarketers.

[~cliffwalk]

I think you can define the ettiquette that applies to you by asking yourself whether or not you would be offended by it.

I'm not offended when people post messages asking to check out their stuff, actually I almost always do when I read that... so I do it myself. Everytime I release something to the web a message goes to 5-6 different places that I frequent.

When you're an active participant in a web forum and happen to mention your music in every post... or even have it in a signature... good for you!

To me, you're almost certainly guaranteed NOT to get ANYTHING from me (a listen, a CD sales, a response, etc) if you:

-SPAM my mailbox directly
-Deceive me
-Disrupt me
-Insult my intelligence
-Or make music I don't like

I mean, really music promotion is Marketting 101. There's no rules except those of common sense.

*Don't alienate a potential customer*

Which, of course, is why many of the more prominent artists are VERY careful about what they say, what battles they choose, and specifically how they handle criticism....

That's why MANY of the "larger" ADD/9thwave/etc bands stay somewhat clear of the forums all together. Why chance it?

Hell, many artists don't WANT to associate their own "private" personality to their listening public. Sounds pretentious but it's a fair choice...

Just do it David Vesel style.

Dave

[~Daft Monk]

I have no problem with signatures. I even enjoy them to an extent, but I stand by my complete annoyance with left-field references to the promoter's music in the context of post that is supposedly relating to something else.

[~pop]

What I can't freaking stand is artists who live off electrogarden.com. Their entire lives evolve around 70 active people. In their own heads getting fame with few hands of people are going to give them next step to MTV. Entire synthpop scene doesn't equal to electrogarden.com. Small scene like this shouldn't have freaking politics. I wonder what kind of lives some people have if they don't say what they want most of the time.
They probably get yelled by their girlfriend, boyfriend, wife, or husband all the time. Vessle, do what you please... You will never able to make a living doing synthpop music. It is like having dreams on making a living doing polka. You probably have a better chance of fame and money in polka. This scene is small...
Do what you please....If you are going to spend rest of your life
try to please hand full of people, your road of life is very depressing.

[~David Vesel]

Pop, I need to ask you this, because you've done this about four or five times and I can't always tell where you're coming from. You need to clarify if you're speaking generally or speaking to me personally.

Also, to everyone participating in this thread, I'm not asking you what I should do specifically, but rather what you do about promotion and what you think is good and/or bad.

There's already been some great feedback here. Keep it coming!

[~Scar Chemik]

To David first: Huge thanks for bringing this up. I'm in a weird situation now.
Here's the set-up: I just finished another CD and the response from people who have heard it is that they immediately buy it.

"Great", I think, if I can just get others to hear it maybe I could sell some to strangers. Problem is, outside of mp3.com and Electrogarden, I have no clue how to 'approach' people. The last thing I want to do is tick somebody off. So, I use the harmless sig like everyone else which never generates traffic.

In the end, I do nothing which gets me nothing in return.

Pop: I couldn't agree more with your entire post, no way you make a living doing this kind of music which has such a limited audience.

To all self-creative artists: I have a thought which I could put in another thread. Hows about we all exchange our CDs? Then we could come on here and give opinions and generate interest.

Nobody gets hurt and we all get to hear new music. Just for the cost of shipping.

[~hornblas]

We would be happy to exchange CDs. We don't have a commercial release yet, but would be happy to exchange our demo CD.

[~cosmicity]

David: I think most people do a good job at not crossing the lines. It really is a common sense thing. Don't post something you yourself wouldn't want to see.

As for promotional ideas outside of posting on newsgroups, the next best thing is to hook yourself a spot on a couple of compilations. Next time ADD or Ninthwave is releasing a new music sampler... or even if there's one you can buy your way on to... that's a much stronger move than posts on newsgroups. Fans are made when they hear and like your music. :-)

Next best thing: CD singles you can use as give-aways. (CD-Rs will even work, but people are more likely to listen if it looks "real".) If there's a store or local club that supports similar music to yours, passing out some free singles in that environment can be a real boost. Though it costs money to do, if you believe you've got music that will really impress listeners, it may be worth it. But carefully measure your environment... I did this with my single "The Princess of Detroit" in an overly goth/industrial environment and I saw hardly any results. The style of this song did not appeal to those listeners. It has since fared much better at the more techno/dub-oriented clubs.

Anyway, those are my two best suggestions.

mark nicholas
info@cosmicity.com
http://www.cosmicity.com

[~KissTheStar]

Originally posted by pop
What I can't freaking stand is artists who live off electrogarden.com. Their entire lives evolve around 70 active people. In their own heads getting fame with few hands of people are going to give them next step to MTV. Entire synthpop scene doesn't equal to electrogarden.com. Small scene like this shouldn't have freaking politics. I wonder what kind of lives some people have if they don't say what they want most of the time.
They probably get yelled by their girlfriend, boyfriend, wife, or husband all the time. Vessle, do what you please... You will never able to make a living doing synthpop music. It is like having dreams on making a living doing polka. You probably have a better chance of fame and money in polka. This scene is small...
Do what you please....If you are going to spend rest of your life
try to please hand full of people, your road of life is very depressing.


pop has a very salient point. The EGN has it's place but it is not the stop that in and of itself will get you where you want to go. Meg and I have had a lot of discussions about this and it is the reason we are going with a conventional 4-5 piece line-up, including electronics. I have played guitar going on 15 years now.

My background actually come from the late 80s/early 90s alternative rock scene. I fronted an LA based band called Quasimoto's Cha-Cha which was a Janes Addiction type band. Previous to that I was in a band called As-Is which was similiar to REM. Into the 90s I moved to Seattle and messed around with the grunge scene a bit but nothing ever materialized except for playing a set or two with the keyboardist of Heart and got to know Courtney Love , a few others from Queensryche, and the "Sub-pop" crowd. Actually had a "legitimate" manager at the time who represented artists out of the scene such as Gruntruck and had connections with the Cornell brothers. I hazard to guess I may know more about "legitimate" pop music than your average bear.

At the end of 2000 I became enthralled with the sound of Mesh, VNV Nation, Apoptygma Berzerk and several goth bands such as Him, Vast, Inkubus Sukkubus, Seraphim Shock and London After Midnight. Moved to LA Decemeber of 2000. Decided I needed to learn the electronic music craft. Dabbled around until I got to know the boys of BNI via email. Found the EGN where I have learned quite a bit about the craft. Made lots of connections. Got involved with the EGN, working the interview side. Have gotten to know the management of several big name bands such as The Devils (Nick Rhodes), Gary Numan, Berlin, De/Vision, etc.

Eventually hope to move into the mainstream sound again, taking elements of Synthpop, EBM, Goth and Pop music. Music moves in cycles, synthpop may see its day again but banking on the scene to make it is a mistake.

To get to your question David. There is NO Etiquette for promoting your music. Be diligent. Be aggressive. Don't let people knock you down. You know you are starting to make waves when people start to take shots at you. I have talked to several promoters in and out of the synthpop scene about the furor the Kiss the Star thread made. And the message I kept getting over and over, even from people who did not like the song was that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BAD PUBLICITY. I don't know that I agree 100% but there is something to it. I don't want to turn this into another KtS thread, but some people genuinely liked and some people HATED it. But people listened and that is the name of the game. It did get to number 1 on the New Wave charts at mp3 dot com and stayed in the top 10 for 2 weeks. And thanks to the negative feedback a new version of the song is complete and does blow the old version away. Thanks MESH, pop and everyone else who let me have it. So push push push what YOU believe in. It doesn't matter what I think or anyone else for that matter. If you do this for yourself you will not lose, regardless if you sell 10 or 10,000 records.

DO IT FOR THE LOVE OF MUSIC.


~Craig

[~cliffwalk]

Anyone trying to "MAKE IT" wont do so on the internet. Style of music/scene... that wont get you anywhere either... If you're "balls out" serious about building a serious fan base you better:

(a) Have material you believe in

(b) IN MOST CASES, are ready to pull that music off live everywhere that will let you play

(c) Network, Network, Network, Network.. get your stuff remixed, get on Compilations... get your music heard, get your face seen, whatever it is your selling... get it out there...

It's basically the same formula as getting any other business off the ground.

Dave

[~KissTheStar]

Originally posted by cliffwalk
Anyone trying to "MAKE IT" wont do so on the internet. Style of music/scene... that wont get you anywhere either... If you're "balls out" serious about building a serious fan base you better:




Not 100% true Dave. Although I believe in what you say in spirit. This statement is dead wrong. There are many bands who have made it on the internet and have gotten major label deals via the internet.

But in this scene, you are probably right.

[~pop]

There is no rule in this scene, because nobody really made it in this scene. On that note, be true to yourself, be unique, differentiate your image and sound, have some sense of style,
keep up with other scenes, write better songs, keep on improving, and learn from others. Most important thing, "QUALITY SONGS." It can be popie, derranged, or weird. Longs as you have a cool signature sound, possiblities are greater. Some people making it in this scene with formula sound, but that only going to make you big in a very small pond....

By the way, isn't this discussion discussed six million times like Six million dollar man?

By the way Craig, why I can't find any information about Nick's band, The Devil anywhere in internet?

[~cliffwalk]

Originally posted by catslastdance



Not 100% true Dave. Although I believe in what you say in spirit. This statement is dead wrong. There are many bands who have made it on the internet and have gotten major label deals via the internet.

But in this scene, you are probably right.

I made a rather broadly generalized hard to interpret statement. Of course people have gotten the particular "PUBLIC BREAK" that they needed to get a major deal through the Internet. The Internet is no less of a viable medium as the TV, Radio, or Live Venues.

What I'm saying is that it's just one and I guess further is to make sure people keep themselves in check. Once again trying to be analogous with my real-life... I know people who STILL have some sort of notion that they will become a web developer overnight and make a 6 figure salary if they pick up an AOL Account and Frontpage (a bit of an exxagerration).

Scary as it seems for every 1 realistic thiker we have on EGN there's 1000 IDIOTS hanging their shingle on MP3.COM assuming that it's they're road to fame and fortune.

As for EGN being small and silly... well, frankly, there is one thing I can say what EGN has that very few other places have:

MANY, MANY, MANY, talented and rather serious musicians aggregated on place... unfortunately we spend most of our time kicking each other's asses but to be truthful, for a small community and non-existant scene, we do have a nice concentration of talent here that can synergize from each other..

That's why I didn't totally bail in December when this place REALLY was pissing me off..

dave

[~Quixote Chapter]

Originally posted by pop
By the way Craig, why I can't find any information about Nick's band, The Devil anywhere in internet?

http://www.thedevils.tv/

-K

[~amyagogo]

Not sure if anyone gives a crap, but Nick's foray with The Devils is extremely delaying the release and production of Duran Duran's new album, as is his work with co-producing and playing on upcoming The Dandy Warhols cd...

Which to most of you, i'm sure doesn't mean a damn thing, but to me and my fellow Duranies we've been waiting on this album for over a year now (well, almost 18 years in all actuality with the original five)...

Yeah, i know it has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but hey...*shrugs*...who cares? I'll shamelessly promote Duran any day :p

[~David Vesel]

Originally posted by pop
What I can't freaking stand is artists who live off electrogarden.com. Their entire lives evolve around 70 active people. In their own heads getting fame with few hands of people are going to give them next step to MTV. Entire synthpop scene doesn't equal to electrogarden.com. Small scene like this shouldn't have freaking politics. I wonder what kind of lives some people have if they don't say what they want most of the time.


Assuming you were speaking generally (which your followup seemed to suggest), I agree with you. One web site does not make a star. I see the same thing go on over at Ampcast. People mistake the forums there for reality when in fact only about one in 100 are even registered to read the forums.

I use the Ampcast forums strictly as a social outlet. EGN is different, in that it's more focused in its traffic. Though again, I use this place mostly as a resource (I spend the vast majority of my time in this forum and in the Tech forum).

On the other hand.....I'd be pretty darned happy with 70 fans at this point. :)


They probably get yelled by their girlfriend, boyfriend, wife, or husband all the time. Vessle, do what you please... You will never able to make a living doing synthpop music. It is like having dreams on making a living doing polka. You probably have a better chance of fame and money in polka. This scene is small...
Do what you please....If you are going to spend rest of your life
try to please hand full of people, your road of life is very depressing.

Nah, I'm way too realistic for that. And I despise polka. :)

Originally posted by Scar Chemik
To David first: Huge thanks for bringing this up. I'm in a weird situation now.
Here's the set-up: I just finished another CD and the response from people who have heard it is that they immediately buy it.

"Great", I think, if I can just get others to hear it maybe I could sell some to strangers. Problem is, outside of mp3.com and Electrogarden, I have no clue how to 'approach' people. The last thing I want to do is tick somebody off. So, I use the harmless sig like everyone else which never generates traffic.

In the end, I do nothing which gets me nothing in return.

It is touchy to do. Even with my mileage on the net, I still am occasionally surprised by the occasional negative response.

The .sig is good. It's constant, low-level exposure. Beyond mp3.com and EGN, it's a real crapshoot as to whether your efforts end up being worth the results. I cautiously promote on e-mail lists. I maintain subscriptions with about 25 of them, all synthpop-related in some way. Of those, only two -- Modern_Synthpop and synthpopwriters -- do I involve myself in an ongoing basis.

The way I've done the other lists is to dedicate about a week in advance following the articles diligently, reply in a germane fashion when the opportunity arises. Once people get used to seeing your name around, then pop the invitation to come check out stuff.

I don't know exactly how effective that is, but I've never received any complaints. And this only applies to lists that aren't already 50 percent spam. On those lists -- like synthpop@yahoogroups.com or DarkMusicForSale -- just post away. But don't expect much from them either.

OMDs can work but they require much more effort to get involved, and frankly, I only have the energy for Ampcast and EGN. I'm on pretty much every free OMD in existence, "just in case" as Midihead says.


To all self-creative artists: I have a thought which I could put in another thread. Hows about we all exchange our CDs? Then we could come on here and give opinions and generate interest.

Nobody gets hurt and we all get to hear new music. Just for the cost of shipping.

I'm all for that. Perhaps we should start a separate thread for that..

Originally posted by cosmicity
David: I think most people do a good job at not crossing the lines. It really is a common sense thing. Don't post something you yourself wouldn't want to see.

Deep down, that's what I try to do. One reason for this thread was to see if my perceptions were accurate or if I was being too conservative.


As for promotional ideas outside of posting on newsgroups, the next best thing is to hook yourself a spot on a couple of compilations. Next time ADD or Ninthwave is releasing a new music sampler... or even if there's one you can buy your way on to... that's a much stronger move than posts on newsgroups. Fans are made when they hear and like your music. :-)


I am doing that. But getting the wife to agree to let me spend the $80-100 is a little tough sometimes. Yeah, I'm hoping to make my first compilation appearances this year. I've talked to Dave at Ninthwave several times, will pull the trigger this year. I look at $100 and see a small investment for potentially a nice return, but she sees it as $100 less on the house downpayment.


Next best thing: CD singles you can use as give-aways. (CD-Rs will even work, but people are more likely to listen if it looks "real".) If there's a store or local club that supports similar music to yours, passing out some free singles in that environment can be a real boost.

Maybe Styk has some reconnaissance on where that's doable in St. Loo....


Anyway, those are my two best suggestions.

Always pleased when you reply to my articles, Mark. :)

Originally posted by catslastdance
[b]To get to your question David. There is NO Etiquette for promoting your music. Be diligent. Be aggressive. Don't let people knock you down. You know you are starting to make waves when people start to take shots at you........DO IT FOR THE LOVE OF MUSIC.

~Craig

Thanks for the alternate point of view. Maybe after the next album, which I know will be much better, I'll feel brave enough to push harder.

[~pop]

on that note... let me suggest one thing....
synthpop scene is so scattered around all over the world...
that is what i am slowly finding out in past two years....
your investment in advertisement should be on internet..
no one concentration of geographical area for synthpop exists anywhere in the world.

you should try to apply new styles to your music.
i know it is damn forking hard to learn new ways of writing...
cross over has been the key to success in musical history...
look at beatles, futurepop bands, new wave (disco/punk),
madchester (big beat/funk/britpop), and many others...
just think about that in back of your mind. crossing over is a big risk... because you can be called a poser by hardcore listeners..
well.. everything is a risk, but if you got nothing to lose... why not go for it? i don't see modern synthpop as next big wave of anything.. it has not moved anywhere in past four years.
if you like writing synthpop, keep on doing it... ;)
Biggest problem is there is no geographical concentration of fans.
It is hard to start a scene based off internet, because there are way too many sites in the world.. Get my drift? Synthpop moves slow because people have to come to you.... How are you going to randomly find audiences in internet without annoyance?
Here is a little hint... It is always good idea to grab a musicial movement that is happening in your area and apply to your music.
If something good rubs off from it, it is a good thing...

I spend too much time here... must work....

By the way Amy, that picture is so cute.....

[~arronc]

I think everyone has their own critera for choosing what to take a look at on the web.

Being a bit old school, I still like to think that the cut of a persons' hair tells you a lot about the music. If you like the haircut, you'll generally like the music.

Although it is not possible for everyone to have great hair, some groups such as PSB have made up for it with funky wigs and hats.

Look at the difference between the excellent Very album and the boring Release Album. The difference ? What neils got up top.

;)

[~NullDevice]

In short, promotion is difficult A lot of artists in our genre are in a tough spot - they've got to promote their stuff, *and* write and produce it, *and* work a 9-5 day job. It's hard to fit it all in. Good promo takes a lot of work, and a lot of time to make connections, hammer out deals, etc. And it takes money to buy ads, rent webspace, etc etc. But it also takes money to buy gear and pay mastering costs. This makes it really tricky to balance everything.

I certainly don't expect megastardom to fall out of my synthpop noodlings. It'd be nice, sure, but I certainly doubt it'll happen. I make the music because I enjoy making the music. I sure as hell don't expect to make any money doing this.

As for the ettiquite, it's just common sense. Be aggressive, but don't be pushy. It's okay to speak your mind, but don't go around flaming and making a general ass of yourself. It's kinda like a low-key job interview that never ends. :)

Granted, the "making an ass of yourself" thing seems to have worked for a lot of bands, so maybe I'm way off...

[~eurotic]

You forgot to add "Have a friend sing your praises constantly":)

And making a general ass of yourself? It's worked for Bryan Erickson!

[~amyagogo]

Originally posted by pop

By the way Amy, that picture is so cute.....

Thanks, Pop... i think it sums up my life quite simply ;)

[~Human Clone]

"Wanting people to listen, you can't just tap them on the shoulder anymore. You have to hit them with a sledgehammer, and then you'll notice you've got their strict attention. "

John Doe

[~badacid]

I have been victim/benefactor of the mp3.com scene up until they shut down their wallets and started the premium services. In fact, my mp3c fans pretty much built my studio for me... thanks to all who dl'd...

I found my mailbox filled with "I love your stuff, here's mine..." and if I replied to any of them, whether I commented on their material or not - within a few days of being in the top 40 of any of the charts, I got put on mailing lists. The agressiveness of promotion during the heydey of mp3.com, before they made the mistake of streaming copyrighted material, was mostly due to them giving away 1 million dollars per month for a while...

My promotion to get into the top 40 consisted of posting on boards when I released a new song and offering review trades - with complete honesty. I also chose to avoid naming my songs to specifically get search engine results, and chose my band name way before posting music online.

I think as a private artist, you can hand out promo cds after shows or during chillouts, you can post new songs for review or hand off finished work to a dj after its copyrighted. But other venues of promotion just wreak Greed imho.

I wanted to get my music an audience, if that is your true goal then the music will help you succeed. I never got signed, though one of my tracks is on a UK compilation called Smokin Beats. (actually I might have the title wrong, its been a while since I thought of that disc...).

If you get caught up in bboards... get real, there's little chance anyone who has time to read a lot of posts is in the business. Its possible, but unlikely. You are better off spending another hour on your music and buying a lottery ticket.

Scotty
Tripping in the Fall

[~digitalia]

Originally posted by Human Clone
"Wanting people to listen, you can't just tap them on the shoulder anymore. You have to hit them with a sledgehammer, and then you'll notice you've got their strict attention. "

John Doe

hahaha, yes brotha!!!

by the way, be prepared to be hit with my sledgehammer next week, dawg.... (finally)

Scar: im totally up for the CD-swap thing - have we started a post for that yet?

cheers,
d