which keyboard?

[~Mico R]

whats a good keyboard to recommend to someone just getting into "synth/pop" that has limited experience

thanks for you help,
-Mico

[7red7]

You know what, it's a little secret of mine, but what the hell, I'll divulge it...Back a couple years ago when I first began experimenting in making electronic music, the first synth I bought was a generic Yamaha DJX for around $350.00...Now it's no showstopper thats for sure, but if you're just barely starting out and don't want to jump head first into spending a lot of money, you might want to look into it...Trust me, it has plenty of programmable beats, loops, effects, and tons and tons of sounds and killer strings (which I still use now)...What I'm getting at is a lot of people might recommend higher end synths, and thats fine...I'm just looking at it from a beginer's standpoint...It's a great starter keyboard and you get a lot for the small price...It's also very user friendly, and I think thats also a plus when starting out...

Hers a link to it with a brief description of it's features, and some user reviews...Keep in mind there is an updated version, not nearly as good as the one pictured on this page...The original (which I have) is pictured on this page...http://www.crmav.com/dj/97/djx_portable_keyboard.shtml

However, if you have the extra cash ans want to start big, I'd go with this one...http://yamaha.com/cgi-win/webcgi.exe/DsplyModel/?gSYS00005MOTIF

HAPPY KEYBOARDING!!!

DAN

[~ZuN]

A Roland Juno 106 is a great board to learn programming.

[~SFARAH]

I also recommend a Roland RS-5 or RS-9. It was my first one and I still love to use it. Very easy to use, great sound and price. It looks great too.

[~intro]

I hear the microKORG is a pretty groovy synth to start with, though I haven't played with it.

-Mark
www.djintrovert.com

[~ZuN]

that microKorg is sweet, its like a very portable MS2000 :)

[~delobbo]

Originally posted by ZuN
that microKorg is sweet, its like a very portable MS2000 :)

hey ZuN I just want to take a moment to say that you have the coolest avatar on the entire board, imo. :D :D

Re: first keyboards: ... Juno-106 is definitely a great keyboard to learn actual patch programming with - but alas there is no method of sequencing with just that alone (not to mention they are not exactly easy to find - at least last time I checked) - so it depends - if you want to start sequencing - then either get a keyboard like the 106 or RS5 etc and get a MIDI interface for your computer (along with software) - or get something like a Korg Electribe series box, that is kind of like an "all-in-one" unit, that doesn't cost too much. check it out.

delobbo
DM freak

[~ZuN]

Originally posted by delobbo
[b]

hey ZuN I just want to take a moment to say that you have the coolest avatar on the entire board, imo. :D :D



Thank you for the compliment delobbo :)

[~Mark G.Reynolds]

I suggest you get an upright piano. Learn the trade and don't worry about the secrets of the trade.

[~intro]

Mark makes a good point. I know I would benefit from better playing skills. If an upright piano will fit the budget, then by all means do it. If not, then try to find something that will be good to learn on, and won't be useless when you start to get serious. For me, it was a Roland XP30. Not the greatest keyboard on earth (talking about the keyboard itself, not the synth part of it), but decent.

If you can afford it, get something with 88 keys and weighted. That would rock. As much as the Tritons get bashed on, I know a few people who are very happy with them.

-Mark
www.djintrovert.com

[~Mico R]

Originally posted by Mark G.Reynolds
I suggest you get an upright piano. Learn the trade and don't worry about the secrets of the trade.

Youve got to be kidding me? Is this your way of poking fun of the new guy? If not, thanks for your "advice", but I already know how to play piano. Please re-read my original post and take particular attention to the words "keyboard" "synth/pop". Then post back on here telling me whats wrong.

Thanks to the rest for your advice! Im currently deciding on a Roland Juno-106, RS5 with a Midiman midi interface, or a Korg Electribe ES1.


-Mico

[~cliffwalk]

I would lean towards the Juno. What you really want to learn, since you already have "Keyboarding skills", is basic programming skills/sound design... you'll get that there.

Frankly, my keyboard is an old Kawai KC20... it does nothing but go stright in (via Midiman) into my PC and controls softsynths. I have some outboard gear but it's in a closet... I get all sorts of programming environments this way for a fraction...

dave

[~cliffwalk]

Originally posted by Mark G.Reynolds
I suggest you get an upright piano. Learn the trade and don't worry about the secrets of the trade.

sorry to drag this topic back up but this response has been bothering me...

here's my glitch... i agree that actually learning a musical instrument is important as is music theory, songwriting, and writing good lyrics...

what i disagree with is discounting the technology as a "secret of the trade". we've spent a great deal of time repeating the same mantras about songwriting and creating music..

"it needs to be a good song just playing it on the piano"

well, umm, not really? not always, not even half the time...

while i agree that a lot of Pop music is based on simple circle of fifths progressions and simple melodies the arrangements that we have at our disposal to put behind the song are compositional elements in and of themselves..

the synthesizer isn't just an extended "KEYBOARD" ... it's a musical instrument... a filter sweep isn't just a gimmic, if used intelligently it could be the focal point of a song.

I guess what I'M driving at is that it tends to get a bit self-defeating for us to constantly hail a "Back to the Beatles" approach...

You need to learn the TECHNOLOGY because it's where your color pallette lives... This isn't only music about harmony and melody, it's also about rhythm, timbres, and pther exploits revolving around technology which in the end is supposed to produce stuff that will be more interesting than what came before it.

A lot of people cite some of the repetitiveness/cloning in electronic music being related to the fact that many of the people making it don't understand music theory... well, in some instances that's true... in other instances it's very much the lack of digging deeper than chord structure and 4/8/16 bar phrasing...

the freshest stuff i've been hearing lately are people actually thinking about the technology as an equal to the tonality in the artistic process.

dave

[~MidiRipper]

I'm going to have to disagree with choosing the Juno 106. Don't get me wrong as it is a great classic synth (I use mine all the time). And it's great for creating your own analog patches, soundshaping, etc., but it is extremely limited. Although it's polyphonic, it is not multi-timbrel. So if you run through a sequencer, you will only be able to play one patch at a time.

'Ripper

[~pop]

Juno is not multi. It is a good additional key.
Get KORG ES-1 for drums $200 used and Ensoniq S8-80 (8part multi) $300used.

You can also get Midiman Audiophile 2496 or Echo Mia sound card for $180 or less, buy a copy of Reason 2.0 for $250, and cheap used Casio controller with velocity and all other midi CC for less than $80.

By the way, there is no rule in pop song writing. It has guidenance of direction, but that's it. Music theory is bull shi* if you don't how to use it. I worked with guitar players and song writers with 1 year experiences and they kick more asses than someone who has been playing for 20 years. Sometimes, I rather work with some street Kats than some PHD ¤¤¤¤ers who don't have a clue.

[Synthpopalooza]

Well, I have three boards in my lineup ...

A Kawai K-1 (it's digital, no analog stuff, but it is multitimbral)
Korg Poly-800 II (all analog, but monotimbral)
Yamaha DX-100 (very cheap but very effective)

And with an Atari ST sequencer and some clever multitracking in ACID 2.0, you can do a lot, even if you only have one keyboard. The Poly-800 II is in my view almost as good as a Juno, you can get some really good analogue-ish sounds out of it. Mind you it is all pusbutton technology (no knobs) but I've been able to coax some cool sounds out of it.

[~David Vesel]

Hey, my first synth was a Kawai K1. :) Several of my early demo tapes were done on just a K1. Not the whole package, though, since the drums sounds in it sound really ill. If you get a K1, get an inexpensive Boss drum machine to go with it. You could probably get both used for about $150.

I like my Alesis QS6. 16-channel multitimbral and 64 note polyphony, I pretty much did my entire last album on it. The QS6.1 adds the wondrous 16 MB stereo piano as well. There aren't a whole lot of stock patches that work well right out of the box, but the EuroDance Q-Card has a lot of great stuff on it. Mostly good drum sounds except for the weak crash cymbal. The QS-6 lets you get into music production without having to do too much programming up front, but once you get into programming, the thing is deep deep deep. They go for between $300-400 used these days for the QS6, $400-500 for the QS6.1.

None of what else I have would probably make a good first synth in and of themselves, but they all have their merits. The Ensoniq ESQ-1 is multitimbral and has analog filters and a sequencer, but many of the sounds are quite dated, especially the drums. With imaginative programming, though, it's actually quite a good electro synth.

I have two analog synths, an Oberheim Matrix-6R and an ARP Axxe. The Matrix is not very fun to program through the front panel. The Axxe is a great hands-on synth for analog beginners.

I also have an alphaSyntauri system, the first affordable digital synthesizer, and a Wurlitzer 200 electric piano. Both of those would only be of interest to you if you have certain fetishes to fulfill. :)

[Synthpopalooza]

Originally posted by David Vesel
Hey, my first synth was a Kawai K1. :) Several of my early demo tapes were done on just a K1. Not the whole package, though, since the drums sounds in it sound really ill. If you get a K1, get an inexpensive Boss drum machine to go with it. You could probably get both used for about $150.




Actually, you are right, the preset drums are trash. But instead of going with a drum machine, I have created tons of customized snare and hi-hat patches on the Kawai. Plus it's the mark II version, which has onboard effects. For my kick drums, I use a couple of patches I brewed up on the Yamaha DX-100, and the Korg Poly-800 will occasionally deliver a snare or a hi-hat sound.

For example, the Synthetik FM song "Technology" song (the one that has Nukleon vox) is pretty much all Kawai K1 ... except for the Kick Drums (DX-100) and the hi-hat (Korg poly-800). Not to mention that I have really cooked up a cool bass patch on the K1 and it's starting to work its way into more of my compositions.

[~hornblas]

I am also using the K1r as well as the microKorg. Both have worked out great for me. The programmig on both took some time , but was well worth the effort.

[~LARS]

I think you should start off with a workstation like a KORG Triton or a YAMAHA MOTIF 6 which I have had both and they are a great because you get everything in one package!! You can always find a great deal on ebay so I would start there!!

[~Scar Chemik]

I want to second what Lars says. If I take your first point literally, you want to make synthpop music. Not learn all of the facets of synth programming (which is infinitely easier using free soft synths BTW).

My suggestion? Get a controller keyboard, a VST capable sequencer program like Cubase or Logic, and download a bunch of the free softsynths. I have roughly 40 free and paid for soft synths that I work with. The sound pallete is phenominal and there is no latency when recording if you have a digital break out sound card.

I customize the heck out of all of the sounds, often starting with nothing but a sine wave.

If not this, do what Lars said, get a 16 part multitimbral workstation with a sequencer. After you get the song down and have more money go out and buy the really good keyboards and modules like the Access or Waldorf products.

Scar

[~NukleoN]

If I had to consider a new master control synth today, it would be without a doubt the Virus KC. 32 voice polyphony, vocoder included and a virtually endless palette of sounds waiting to be created. There's even a dediated UNDO button. Knob movement is MIDI recordable and FX are also included in this synth.

I just ordered an Indigo II which is essentially the same thing but with a smaller 3 octave keyboard and blue LED's. If desk space is at a premium, consider the Indigo II as well. Check out www.access-music.de for more information.

[~hornblas]

Nice to see another Indigo user. What do you think of the Noivation K-station? The K-station also has the same small keyboard. Great for live use and studio.

[~ERIC31]

This is a cool thread. I wish I had done this before I got my first synth which is a Yamaha DX-21. That thing is hard as hell to program, the preset sounds are muddy and I wish I had never gotten it.

Good luck with your quest!

[~NullDevice]

Most FM Synths are pretty unintuitive to program - there's a much more linear relation to "what happens when I change this filter cutoff" in a subtractive synth than "what happens if I change the modulation frequency of operator 4?"

That being said, FM synthesis can make some excellent sounds. I've got a TX81Z that I used to use a lot (although since FM7 came out, not so much - more polyphony and stereo, etc). The sounds almost always need EQ and compression. Don't give up on the DX21 yet. FInd yourself an editor for your computer (frontpanel editing on the entire DX/TX series always sucked) and it might make more sense.

Font242's best work (Offcial Version and FrontByFront) feature FM synthesis heavily - that's proof positive that it's good for somehting other than the Doogie Howser electric piano and the House Organ. :)

[~arronc]

HI there : just to chime in : I still use my DX100 and TX81Z for some of the unique sounds these can make, but be aware on the DX100/21 the sound will always be muddy because of the very poor d/a conversion on these units. (It was fixed on TX series and DX7 II). Still the DA noise comming up behind the main signal is unique in iteslf !

[~conditioner]

I use the Yamaha Motif 7. This thing rocks beyond belief. If I wanted to i could do a whole album on it

[~hornblas]

I use the DX200. This little box produces some fantastic FM/ digital sounds. With the included software programmer, I have been able to create some very usable and unique sounds.

[~badacid]

Excuse the definate possibility of offending some people... you are all wrong...

I am a firm believer that music is hardware specific due to both the timbral ranges of instruments AND their interface.

Geek talk aside, we can't recommend gear unless we know what you are into and want to produce...

I have:
Nord Lead 2 Rack (good for Gronky basses, and edgy pads/fx)
Access Virus A (good for stacked leads, smooth spiller pads and arpeggios - very trance sounding due to the number of artists in trance using them but by no means only for trance)
Emu Morpheus (possibly the most complicated synth engine around = for evolving atmospherics)
akai mpc2000xl for sequencing and drums

I think that you need to decide what you want:
a workstation that does everything but not any one thing amazingly well (triton, trinity, xp or rs series roland, ex series yamaha, motif)

or

a classic analog synth - say oberheim, sequential, moog or arp

or

a cheap niche synth *see CZ101, fz10m, k4

or

a VA standard (virus, supernova, nord lead, waldorf etc.)

or

a sampling workstation (k2000/2500/2600) with excellent programmability and clean natural sounds.

check synthsite.com for gear and read the reviews, also harmony-central.com.

Its more than money spent, its a framework upon which your dreams may rest...

Scotty
Tripping in the Fall

[~Quixote Chapter]

Originally posted by badacid
Excuse the definate possibility of offending some people... you are all wrong...



Getting a bit didactic, eh?

I agree with you to some extent. It's difficult to bake a cake with a toaster, but if your ingenious enough, it can be done. The tools you choose shape your sound somewhat, but ultimitly it is theartist that does the most shaping. The songs I create all have a signature Qchapter atmosphere. I've used many different composition tools: Acid, Reason, Korg electribes, Waldorf analog modelers, old FMs, vintage samplers,pots and pans, and cans full of rice,but the sound always has my signiture on it. What maters most is the final product, you know, what comes out of the speakers. Sometimes gear lust can mute that fact.

-Kevin

[NJOberheim]

Thats funny. I have the K1 too. I thought I was the only one alive that still owned one. It's a pretty neat synth.

[~badacid]

Oh. I am a gearwhore, I know. I prefer to work within single program mode on the Virus, so I want another. I think the perfect setup for me would be one synth per part.

I have owned and sold, Novation Supernova, Korg MS2000, Electribe R, Emu e6400, Roland Sh101 & Xp50. (financially I had to sell them... mostly) :(

If you got the time and money to buy stuff you wont use, go ahead.

The point of my last post might have been lost... How can you recommend a synth to someone you dont know? Without a clue as to what you want to do with it...

The best deal for a VA right now is either A Nord Lead 2 or Access Virus B, they cost about the same but arent quite different. I shudder at buying an expensive 20 or 30 year old analog synth, no matter now well they used to build them (wouldnt want my only car that old right?). Another good catch is the Kurzweil k2500 - they are selling for 1/4 their original price and offer amazing real sounds and great VAST technology for creating new sounds and mangling old ones (with the sample option, the sky is the limit).

Man, just check out what your favorite top 3 artists use... the only other way to know what to get is to hang out at the music store all day tweaking or rent a synth for the weekend!

Rant.over

Oh and signature sound? Thats a given, if you have music in your blood you can tap out a good beat on the IV pump and stand plugged into you at the hospital (minimal techno right?). But the happier you are with your tools & the better suited they are for the task, the better the result. (use a wrench as a hammer - ok, use a hammer as a wrench - not fun)

Scotty
Tripping in the Fall

[~Visage-the-toy]

All you guys forgot the most important one... Pianosaurus!!!! :>

[Synthpopalooza]

I've always been a proponent of the philosophy "It's not what you have, it's what you do with what you have" ... I would probably recommend a classic analog synth, a cheap FM synth, and a multitimbral synth. Also if you're so inclined, a BOSS Drum Machine to go along with it (altho personally I've sworn off drum machines for the time being, except for the laying down of temp tracks).

The K1 in my setup (which is multitimbral) comes in handy when I am layering tracks, even though some of the sounds may not get used in the final mix, oftentimes they get replaced by better sounding patches off of my Korg Poly-800 or my Yamaha DX-100. If you have a good means of multitracking on your PC (I use Sonic Foundry ACID for this) then multitimbrality is not really much of an issue ... for me anyway.

At some stage I would like to get more equipment, maybe more vintage synths, or even experiment with soft synths and virtual analog. For now, I'm really content to see how far I can push the synths I have in my arsenal.

[~pop]

My setup is so simple now.
Electric piano, Reason for drums, Reaktor, FM7, Modular System,
and Pentagon.