"Modern" EBM Bands = Mediocre Trance Records

[~M.E.]

Why are all the latest releases by A-Pop, VNV Nation, Covenant and the like nothing more than second rate, watered down trance records? Is this what it's all come down to? ATB meets BT and Paul Van Dyk on their laziest day in the studio? Future pop?Hardly.
A Tr-909, oompa oompa bassline, and that arppegiated stringy trance lead bobbing in and out between a low monotone vocal singing about pain and tears.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I demand more! These records are such repetative yawners! It's like listening to punk records, but without any sense of melody or structure.
I doubt this is what Kraftwerk had in mind when they were making their visionary recordings.
I'm ranting, I know, but I just want to hear some honesty about this stuff.
For now, I'll just keep listening to Joy Electric, Ladytron and other pop music that at least hints towards the future, if not making fun of it at the same time. Or maybe I should just listen to a good trance record and see how it's done properly.

[~Ekstasis]

Originally posted by M.E.
Why are all the latest releases by A-Pop, VNV Nation, Covenant and the like nothing more than second rate, watered down trance records? Is this what it's all come down to? ATB meets BT and Paul Van Dyk on their laziest day in the studio? Future pop?Hardly.
A Tr-909, oompa oompa bassline, and that arppegiated stringy trance lead bobbing in and out between a low monotone vocal singing about pain and tears.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I demand more! These records are such repetative yawners! It's like listening to punk records, but without any sense of melody or structure.
I doubt this is what Kraftwerk had in mind when they were making their visionary recordings.
I'm ranting, I know, but I just want to hear some honesty about this stuff.
For now, I'll just keep listening to Joy Electric, Ladytron and other pop music that at least hints towards the future, if not making fun of it at the same time. Or maybe I should just listen to a good trance record and see how it's done properly.


Your my new hero.

Everyone here already know how much I love my trance, but I seriously hate this futurepop stuff. People say trance is repetitive, but thats always before they give it a chance and see how non-repetitive the melodies are, and after they listen to a full set by a good DJ and see what can be done with those melodies. They usually have a totally different view of it.

But with Futurepop, its like the use a preset trance drum loop, throw an arpegio over it, distort the vocals to hell, and call it a song.

Just look at Covenant (Pulls flame retardant hood up before dissing Covenant). The Thermine EP, and Dreams were extremely original Industrial albums. Then came Sequencer, which happened to sound exactly like Dreams. Some time after Sequencer, VNV appeared on the scene with an album and EP where the songs sound so similar, I cant tell the difference between them. The next Covenant album sounded way to VNVish for me. And anymore, I can hardly tell the difference between anything either band does. They found a sound that was good in one song, and decided to repeat it over, and over, and over. Much like the 3 chords every punk band uses.

[~pop]

I don't think artists ever win.....
About four years ago, there was a big discussion in rec.music.industrial about how industrial is a dead freaking horse and things need to change.
Many artists adopted dance music culture, and synthpop to their sound. Now, everyone hates it. I think this scene is going to be dead. Once again, everyone will only listen to depeche mode.
I personally start to dislike sissy pop sound with lots of major chords and cute lyrics. Pop doesn't have to sound so gay and happy. It can sound darker with accessible sound.
I actually like Futurepop, because it is one of few dance music with words. Sometimes, I get so sick of hearing only music.
You guys are right. Futurepop is copying dance culture from other side. Apop is '95 Trance. Covenant is '90 Techno. VnV simply lacks many areas. A23 is popier FLA with Trance sounds.
They will not be accepted by other side, because it has words.
Just like ATB is NOT accepted by real Trance culture, because it is consider British pop music. I personally don't like bands like Joy Electric, because I have to drink a gallon of milk to swallow the cheeze down my throat.

[~rivetbadtz]

Well, there's a formula to everything. Personally, Ive been endlessly more happy with this new 'futurepop' ebm sound than I ever was in the 90's with the now horrendously shipwrecked genre of industrial.

I mean minimalism in stuff like Ladytron, Joy Electric, etc is cool...but I just gotta have my sugary candy coated beats.
I know there is so many different forms of electronic music out there...obscure or not. Be it DnB, IDM/abstract beat, power noise, minimalist psuedo new wave pop, etc. But I just can't get into stuff that has to 'grow on you'(grow on you, as in 'hey! That Rx Ogre or Autecture album aint half bad, just gotta hear it a dozen times')

I think it is everything about the genre I love(be it the sound, image, message, feeling, etc)...sure with a little figuring out and some vst's ya can assemble your own version of it. Maybe that's the fun of it...beauty in simplicity. But never before have I felt such an emboldened feeling of euphoria than I have with these type of bands...I think is the genre of the future,
and a welcomed evolution to me from the stagnant harsh remnants of industrial.

[~Quixote Chapter]

For me "Futurepop" is just plain fun to listen to. It takes the simple melodies of pop, adds a dollop of dance grooviness, the future invocing arpeggiated bleeps of Trance, and a touch of edginess. All the elements that pulled me into the electronic music scene in the first place.

-Kevin

[~Quixote Chapter]

Originally posted by M.E.
oompa oompa bassline, and that arppegiated...



I agree with M.E.All these futurepop artists are possesedby the dead soul of Willie Wonka! That's why they all sound so similar!

he, he :P

-Kevin

ps. I have attatched Covenant's new promo photos for your enjoyment.

[~Eyuva]

well I like oompa loompa basslines & coal train rythms, but most futurepop synthwork sucks, although VNV "Standing" & Ass23 "Dissapoint" are very nice.

On a side note, the New Astral Projection album suits my taste perfectly, I finally have in my possession the perfect synthesiser record... no vocals, but hey, cant have everything.

Originally posted by pop
I
Just like ATB is NOT accepted by real Trance culture, because it is consider British pop music. I personally don't like bands like Joy Electric, because I have to drink a gallon of milk to swallow the cheeze down my throat.

ATB has a couple of nice pop songs on their latest album, never did get into their earlier stuff though. Our local city newspaper interviewed ATB, they liked his melodic approach to dance music.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by M.E.
[b]
A Tr-909, oompa oompa bassline, QUOTE]

Ah, that feels good just thinking about it... :)

[~Ekstasis]

Where do people get the idea that trance doesnt have vocals??? The top trance track that everyone is talking about (In the trance community) are vocal tracks, and if your into synthpop, I can almost gaurntee you will like this stuff.

Armin Van Buuren feat Ray Wilson - Yet Another Day (Riva Mix)
Oceanlab - Sky Falls Down (Armin van Buuren mix)
Chicane - Love on the Run (Rob Searle's Force Five Mix)
Cor finjeman feat. Jan Johnson - Venus ( tiesto mix)
The Moon feat Nu-NRG - The Moon Loves the Sun (cant understand what the hell the girl is saying, but it has vocals)

and a few classics

Jan Johnson - Flesh (Tilt mix)
Alena - Turn it Around (Space Brothers Rethink)
Solar Stone feat Elizabeth - Speak in Sympathy (Deeper mix)

ok, got off on a tangent there. The point I'm trying to make is. ok, It almost 4am and I actually forgot the point I'm trying to make, but check out some of those tracks espically Yet Another Day. I promise you wont be dissapointed by that one.

[~rivetbadtz]

Originally posted by Quixote Chapter
For me "Futurepop" is just plain fun to listen to. It takes the simple melodies of pop, adds a dollop of dance grooviness, the future invocing arpeggiated bleeps of Trance, and a touch of edginess. All the elements that pulled me into the electronic music scene in the first place.

-Kevin

W0rd! And don't forget the aestetics and live shows...yeah sure,
people I know say 'Well, have fun at the $30 kareoke show!'

Sure, the music is coming out of a player in the back, and the only 'live' part is the drums and vocals...but damn if VNV doesnt put on the best shows Ive ever seen(and this includes seeing Nine Inch Nails, FLA, etc) Seeing that 'Legion' video clip on kazaa reinforces how energetic those shows are. Be it VNV, Apop, Funker, etc these are the best darn shows Ive ever been to, and the crowds there are just the coolest. Sure it resembles more a futuristic fashion show, but everyone is really into it. I think because futurepop has been the hot new thing thats taken over the scene in the last 3 or 4 years some people are criticizing it for its obviousness(ie: yes, its trance with vocals)

But here's the thing...most the 'trance' people are referring to usually is that compilation trance with the diva house vocals.
I mean Darude is cool, John Digweed rocks...but I think futurepop blends other elements to make it stand out more.
All I gotta say is Metropolis is my favorite music label ever.

[~Kirlian Blue]

Im with Rivetheadz ..i love EBM.....VNV used what was around in the Camden Town/Slimenight Scene they were not the first Sneaky Bat Machine I recall were there before......but VNV has pulled it off well in my opinion but they are not like most Trance.......The first Trance Orientated EBM track appered as a remix in 1985........

Gary Numan-My Dying Machine(italian remix) a guy calle Giorgio Mirrissmo gave this EBm boodied track a weird build up and stops typical of trance these days but not typical Industrial in those Days...............If you dont believe it buy the Cleopatra Gary Numan comp Remodualte its on there...And it was played heavily in the UKs first EBM nights ever and GERMANY!

M.E. Medioca Trance lol I dont buy your view at all Futurepop or EBM whatever you class kicks the butt out of bland Techno/House which you cannot dance to unless your drugged up as there is nothing there at all but boredom.................EBM like Covenant is brilliant im not a massive fan of VNV but they have made some dammm fine tracks!

Note since APOP has gone Hard House! The UK clubs that played them constantly have dropped them..The House scene in the UK is filled with the skum you want to bleach in your toilet... There hasnt been much good house since Duan Atkins/robert Miles..nothing really just flat bland songs ........

Trance-I like its the only mainstram uk dance scene which i can tolerate and know its crossing over into Electroclash I love it more ..ATB lol Minsistry of Soiund is 20 min journey from where I Live and the only night an alternative wouldnt get beaten up is the trance night as its not a SKUM scene in the Uk!I dont know how it is abroad probaly diffrent but EBM/Futurepop kicks the hell out of most music these days apart from Synthpop and good Industrial or Alternative Metal/Industrial!

kb

[~Scar Chemik]

Funny, I hate trance, but I love most futurepop. Why? Because futurepop resembles a song structure.

Futurepop, when done right, borrows the best of all scenes. Good dance beat, changes between verse and chorus, not monotonous, thought provoking, dark without being too goth.

I don't like everything I hear but who does? I also am a huge fan of Joy Electric and Miss Kitten and other bands with a different angle. But not all of the them. The Covenant tour for United States of Mind was unbelievable. You would have to be dead to not be moved by them live.

Others mentioned it, but everyone needs to stop trashing a whole scene just because they don't like a few bands.

Ron

www.black-chamber.com

[~epsilon minus]

Sticking myself square in the line of fire yet again...

As much as everyone wants to think that this "future pop" thing is a recent development, it's just not. When my interest in the industrial/ebm/whatever progressed past Skinny Puppy and the like, I got into stuff like XMTP's Drawback and Hyperdex-1-Sect's Metachrome. Maximum Pace kicked futurepop a55 years ago. I don't understand the resistance to trance influence. It beats EBM inbreeding. The problems begin when futurepop bands start copying each other, and everyone starts to sound like VNV Nation.

[~Quixote Chapter]

Your right EM. XMTP was kicking Futurepop ass a long time ago. "Drawback" is still an awesome listen. But you're just talking about 1 band and one of its side projects. That hardly constitutes a genre.

-Kevin

[~epsilon minus]

No, it doesn't constitute a genre, I was just making an example of Sevren in particular. He's obviously not the only one. My point was that it's the term and subsequent attention that's new, not the influence itself, as 00ntzdustrial's been around for a while.

[~Ekstasis]

Originally posted by rivetbadtz
But here's the thing...most the 'trance' people are referring to usually is that compilation trance with the diva house vocals.

I dont know of one trance track with diva vocals. Trance usually uses very soft melodic female vocals.

Originally posted by rivetbadtzI mean Darude is cool[b]

Darude isnt trance, its party music. Right up there with the Venga Boys.

Originally posted by Kirlian Blue[b]M.E. Medioca Trance lol I dont buy your view at all Futurepop or EBM whatever you class kicks the butt out of bland Techno/House which you cannot dance to unless your drugged up as there is nothing there at all but boredom.

Its people like you that give the club scene a bad name. 90% of the people I go to trance/techno/house clubs, and even raves, do it sober. I actually think the goth scene has a bigger drinking problem that the trance/techno.house/rave secen has a drug problem.

Originally posted by Kirlian BlueNote since APOP has gone Hard House!

I dont get it. I have about 100 UK, and about 40 or so domestic hard house records, and they sound nothing like Apop.

Originally posted by epsilon minusAs much as everyone wants to think that this "future pop" thing is a recent development, it's just not. When my interest in the industrial/ebm/whatever progressed past Skinny Puppy and the like, I got into stuff like XMTP's Drawback and Hyperdex-1-Sect's Metachrome. Maximum Pace kicked futurepop a55 years ago. I don't understand the resistance to trance influence.

XMTP/Hyperdex-1-Sect/Eco/U-Tec isnt written in a pop format, its the same way as trance. Wanna know why. It was all produced by Talla 2XLC (http://www.electrogarden.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4929)

[~epsilon minus]

XMTP/Hyperdex-1-Sect/Eco/U-Tec isnt written in a pop format, its the same way as trance. Wanna know why. It was all produced by <a href="http://www.electrogarden.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4929">Talla 2XLC</a>[/b][/QUOTE]

Umm... unless Sevren = Talla 2XLC... I'm confused...

[~Ekstasis]

Talla 2XLC founded Music Research, and TechnoClub record labels. He was the person who oragionally signed Pedwalk/side projects. He is majorly involved in everything that gets released on his label.

Talla is also part of BiGod20, and has a major influence with ZothOmmog.

[~pop]

urrrggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!1
pop format = prediction of mood!!!!!!!!!
90% OF SONGS IN THE WORLD...
rock pop format =
1. verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge or breakdown/chorus.
2. verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge or breakdown/verse/chorus.
3. chorus/epic verse/verse/chorus/verse/chorus (LISTEN TO BEATLES!!!!)
4. v1/small breakdown/v2/c/v3/c-repeat 2x

I made it simpler for some people...
The Template of a Simple Pop Song
Intro: x 4 bars (last 4 bars of chorus)
Verse 1: x 8 bars
Verse 2: x 8 bars
Chorus: x 8 bars
Verse 3: x 8 bars
Chorus x 16 bars repeated
on 100 to 120, you will land it on around 4minutes....
it all depends on your intro, breaks, and ending.

DANCE MUSIC....
REAL TECHNO & DOWN TEMPO have similar models.
It is groove based. Repetitveness....
Long as you provide this.... you are set, but you have to do it right... It has to be a perfect groove. Music has to enter into your subconcious. This mean production has to be silky. Your BODY needs to FEEL IT. If your body doesn't feel it. IT IS a CRAP groove.
This is really hard than most people assume. That's why TECHNO has negative image with rock/pop people, because they don't have any soul in their body. They don't get it.
Most pop song heads and rocknroll educated musicians have hard time understanding this concept.

TRance = ANYTHING GOES... MORE melodies are used.
NOT ALWAYS.
MUST MAKE IT EPICAL with TECHNO idea...
MUST provide groovy mood swings in the music
BREAK DOWNS have to be well planned.

FUTUREPOP CAN go two ways... You can use groove
like Techno. Once you pull people in, you are good to go.
You can also use melodies like melodic trance.

There.... I could further explain, but THAT'S IT.
GENERAs of music exist, because they have similarities within the generas. If similiar qualities do not exist, it will not be a genera!!!! You people are so confused in the head.
I am going to light a virtual smokey treat & pass it along.

[~Eyuva]

Originally posted by stargazer


better than NIN? thats a first...



its not trance, really.. seriously.. listen to some trance and then listen to VNV nation... not really the same thing at all...



VNV is on Dependant since day 1.. metropolis just distributes them... not that this matters to anyone really, but props should be given where they are deserved

ps. john digweed blowz

VNV isn't trance at all, unless you count standing, which is sorta trancy. Their other songs are experiments gone bad, especially the ones on Future Perfect.

John Digweed isn't trance either, I've heard he's progressive.

[~Scar Chemik]

I just reread my post and want to correct myself. I don't hate all of trance, just the kind that drones on and on with the bum-chicka-bum-chicka-bum, open high hat for 8 minutes, no vocal kind.

I am not being facitious but could someone please tell me the name of a good 'hard house' band. Not a project or one-off, but a band that puts out full albums and is highly respected in the scene. I seriously have no idea what constitutes hard house.

[~Ekstasis]

99% of dance music never makes it onto an album. If you wanna hear some good hard house. Download a live set by Rachel Orbit, or Lisa Lashes, or buy some records from Tidy Tracks.

[~rivetbadtz]

Good to see some discussions going on. I have to agree the new Apop was definately hard house...heck, there was even a song called 'Detroit Tickets'!

But it's good to see people list reasons for liking or not liking something. On any other forum I would just hear 'it rules!' or 'it sucks!'. heh

Yes, I am addicted to futurepop like a crack addict, as well as some trance stuff. I mean the song structuring, the themes, the everything. Futurepop to me is a great balance between the lighter softer sound of a lot of synthpop and the harsh aggressiveness of industrial, wiht trance and other elements thrown in.


Some of you are right, there is a lot of mind boggling annoying trance out there, those 12 minute repetitive tracks. I guess the only trance like stuff Ive heard that I like is Moonshine Records compilation stuff, DJ Micro cds, and what I thought was 'trance' on those comp cds.

But for me it is all about the sugar and candy...be it the sound of
'Dead Stars', 'Joy', 'Kathy'sSong', 'Gunman', 'Electronaut', 'House on Fire', or any number of fpop tunage.

And yes, for the record...the VNV/Icon of Coil show I went to a year ago did more for me than the NIN/Manson concert 7 years prior oddly enough. 800 versus 18,000 people...kareoke style versus all out apocalyptic band frenzy...but it is the feeling I get from these shows that kicks butt. And from what I have heard, Covenant put on a kick ass show as well.

Finally, yeah I know...VNV isnt as much trance with vocals as some of the new Funker or Icon of Coil tracks. I guess for a general umbrella reference I said that...but when I first heard Praise the Fallen my first thought was 'Holy S***! Who are these guys?' Blew me away, that music in the genre could be so empassioned, literary, epic, and thematic.

[~Ekstasis]

Originally posted by rivetbadtz
Good to see some discussions going on. I have to agree the new Apop was definately hard house...heck, there was even a song called 'Detroit Tickets'!



sigh. Do you people just not listen to Joel and me. Hard house has nothing to do with Detroit. Techno comes from Detroit. If you want to hear techno, check out Ben Simms or Marco Carolla. Thats Techno.

Hard house is:

Domestic Hardhouse. Take a trance track, strip out the melodies, and push the bass up to a driving pulsating 150bpm range.

UK Hardhouse. Take a Gabber/happy hardcore track. Slow it down to 155ish, strip out the annoying pitched vocals, and cheesey synth lines. And again, increase the bass by a few db.


This stuff sounds nothing like Futurepop. I'll agree that future pop has a lot of trance influence, but there is not the slightest hint of hard house in it.

[~epsilon minus]

http://www.epsilonminus.com/livejournal/futurepop.jpg

sorry, couldn't resist

[~rivetbadtz]

Originally posted by epsilon minus

sorry, couldn't resist

heh. Not sure if stoned would be the choice reference(maybe drunk?)

All I know is...kareoke pop trance 4 life yo!

[~Daft Monk]

Originally posted by Eyuva

John Digweed isn't trance either, I've heard he's progressive.

I don't think there is a genre called progressive. For years there has been progressive house and progressive trance, but they aren't the same thing. Digweed has spent years collaborating with trance folks like Sasha and that's where I think his roots lie. Of course, all this micro-managing of sub genres is one of the biggest problems holding ALL of electronic music back from people outside "the scene." Isn't it time we all got along?

[~pop]

i think we should make fun of all electronica....
nothing else to do...
who is next?
you guys forgot to pass along the virtual joint.

[~rivetbadtz]

Isnt progressive those 12 minute early 70's UK bands like YES, ELP, and Genesis?

Anyways, amazing how many subgenres of things there are.
I remember 2 years ago, when a lot of industrial fans not exactly taking to the newfound fpop/synthpop thing...were all talking about 'powernoise/ant zen' stuff.

The best club Ive ever been to, called 'D-Kode' in San Francisco, interesting enough has a night where its like jungle, dnb, psytrance on one floor and ebm/fpop/synth on the other. Though it always seems like the ebm stuff gets more people on the dance floor.

[~Scar Chemik]

I'm getting a headache. All of these terms and different interprations.

Hearing someone describe Hard House makes me believe that that would be a bad match for me since I always EQ the bass out on every stereo I own and turn the treble way up. I like tinny, fake sounding music that is cold and makes its point and gets out (read as under 4:00 minutes).

Long mixes are hard to pull off as it is hard to continue entertaining a listener with the same thoughts. It can be done, but it is an art form.

[~delobbo]

Originally posted by Scar Chemik
I just reread my post and want to correct myself. I don't hate all of trance, just the kind that drones on and on with the bum-chicka-bum-chicka-bum, open high hat for 8 minutes, no vocal kind.

I am not being facitious but could someone please tell me the name of a good 'hard house' band. Not a project or one-off, but a band that puts out full albums and is highly respected in the scene. I seriously have no idea what constitutes hard house.

You sir, are a smart man. I was just about to rip you apart because you said you liked futurepop but HATED trance... I was shaking my head. :) well good for you. I personally don't understand how someone who likes ANY music that has synths in it, be it synthpop, futurepop, or whatever, could say that they HATED trance.... to me, trance is on the same plane as synthpop.. it has differences - but if you like synthpop, and you say you hate trance?? Well I would just have to wonder about you. ;)

Want to hear a great vocal trance song? try Chakra - Love Shines Through :)

Originally posted by Scar Chemik
I just reread my post and want to correct myself. I don't hate all of trance, just the kind that drones on and on with the bum-chicka-bum-chicka-bum, open high hat for 8 minutes, no vocal kind.

btw - what you just said is that you don't like "real" trance.... that's the kind that is really repetitive, and has NO VOCALS, and just goes on and on and on with the same beats, with minimal fluctuations... that's REAL TRANCE by my definition. You are a fan of what most fans of this "real trance" would call "cheesy trance". :) Don't worry, I enjoy a lot of "cheesy trance" also - see the hardcore tranceheads are bonafide believers that there should be NO VOCALS in real trance, by definition....

I would just like to take a moment to say that SILENT LUCIDITY by QUEENSRYCHE is an absolutely fabulous track....... gives me goosebumps, it does. It's weird because back when this song came out, I didn't really pay much attention to it. I've only recently re-discovered it. Beautiful.

[~NullDevice]

I think we've certainly hit upon the problme that afflicts too much of electronic music.

WAY TOO FREAKING MANY SUBGENRES.

And people get way too picky about it too. Okay, so Sasha and Digweed are now calling themselves "Progressive House" or whatever - they're really only building on what they themselves called "trance" a few years back. Nobody had heard of Futurepop and had called VNV "EBM" or "Industrial" or whatever until Ronan decided to coin his own terms.

It really doens't matter. Are you going to stop listening to a band becasue they're describing themselves as "progressive" instead of "trance?" Probably not. It's not even useful to categorize so finely in terms of club nights and reocrd bins, becasue there's so much crossover, so many genres, etc that even a picky record store is probably just going to have one big "trance" section and one big "industrial" section and let it go at that.

I always got a laugh out of Mixmag, reading about the "new wave of French Filtered Progressive House" which as far as I could tell consisted of two bands.

Ultra-categorization is just one of those things some artists and DJs do to try and make themselves sound more original than they often are. It usually doesn't define the music especially well and it's next to impossible to determine where one subgenre ends and the next begins.

I find adjectives are much more useful. :)

[~delobbo]

Null Device, you are a smart man too.

I agree that there are too many genres, and people waste too much time thinking about what genre a certain song is. Especially the mags/media. Oh well... what can you do about it?

[~Scar Chemik]

Originally posted by NullDevice

Ultra-categorization is just one of those things some artists and DJs do to try and make themselves sound more original than they often are. It usually doesn't define the music especially well and it's next to impossible to determine where one subgenre ends and the next begins.



This is the most brilliant comment in this thread. Thank you! A huge round of applause.

Artists are always running from a label which does nothing more than create a new label. Face it, everything is something, you can not be truly original using any instruments that have already been invented.

I wish more artists focused on simply being good rather than trying to differentiate themselves by rejecting a label.

Ron

[~Ekstasis]

Originally posted by delobbo
btw - what you just said is that you don't like "real" trance.... that's the kind that is really repetitive, and has NO VOCALS, and just goes on and on and on with the same beats, with minimal fluctuations... that's REAL TRANCE by my definition. You are a fan of what most fans of this "real trance" would call "cheesy trance". :) Don't worry, I enjoy a lot of "cheesy trance" also - see the hardcore tranceheads are bonafide believers that there should be NO VOCALS in real trance, by definition....

Sorry, but that is just not true. Cheese trance is Lasgo, Ian Van Dahl and most recent eurodance.

Trance has vocals. I have said this over and over. Ambient trance USUALLY doesnt have vocals, and isnt made for clubs.

Some trance has vocals, some doesnt. It takes both for a complete set. The last big DJ I saw was PvD, and the crowd exploded when he played Noemi - Y.O.U (PvD Re-Edit), and Chicane - Autumn Tactics (Thrillseekers mix). This was at an un-advertised show for 800 people at a very small club. The only people who were there were "real trance" fans. The show was announced with 2 days notice, and there were no flyers.

True trance fans like quality trance, regardless of vocals.

[~epsilon minus]

I, for one, am a huge supporter of "true trance". Too many times, I've bought counterfeit trance records, got them home, dropped them on the platter, and been assaulted with christmas muzak. And nothing makes me angrier than a DJ yanking down the psychedelic mandala backdrops to reveal hidden fly-girl dancers, announcing "HAH, FOOLED YOU MASSIVE INSIDE, FAKE TRANCE IN THE MAIN ROOM LIGHTER CREW MAKE SOME NOOOOOOOISE".

[~delobbo]

Originally posted by Ekstasis


Sorry, but that is just not true. Cheese trance is Lasgo, Ian Van Dahl and most recent eurodance.

Trance has vocals. I have said this over and over. Ambient trance USUALLY doesnt have vocals, and isnt made for clubs.

Some trance has vocals, some doesnt. It takes both for a complete set. The last big DJ I saw was PvD, and the crowd exploded when he played Noemi - Y.O.U (PvD Re-Edit), and Chicane - Autumn Tactics (Thrillseekers mix). This was at an un-advertised show for 800 people at a very small club. The only people who were there were "real trance" fans. The show was announced with 2 days notice, and there were no flyers.

True trance fans like quality trance, regardless of vocals.

ummm... ok then!!!! trance has vocals!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I know I was being a bit too general when I basically inferred that there is "real trance", and "cheese trance".

A definition I found online:

Trance Music: Trance is an evolution from progressive house and techno. Trance is designed to take the listener on an inner journey and so features extended journey motifs with repeating and cyclic hypnotic elements. Trance also tends to be more densely layered and intense than techno.

Not saying this is the bible on trance, but I did a search on the history of trance, and came up with this link, among others:

History of Trance Music (http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/DJOASIS/trance%20pages/history_of_trance_music.htm)

Go to that link and do a Ctrl-F and search for "vocal" or "vocals" or "lyrics". That's right. Again, I'm not bringing forth this evidence as being set in stone - just some "food for thought"... :)

Definitely there are other forms of trance between "real trance" and "cheese trance"... a lot of the vocal trance I listen to, I would definitely not call "cheese trance".

delobbo

oh and btw - trust me - I am a BIG fan of trance, in general... let me ask you a question - what year would you say that you heard your first TRANCE song? Just wondering what kind of exposure you're coming from and what background you have.

[~NullDevice]

Originally posted by delobbo


oh and btw - trust me - I am a BIG fan of trance, in general... let me ask you a question - what year would you say that you heard your first TRANCE song?

I know you weren't asking me, but I'll answer anyway (really slow day at work).

1992 - "Age of Love" by Age of Love. It was a remix, though.

At least we've all gotten past sampling "the spice must flow!"

[~Ekstasis]

There were a few trance songs I was kind of into around the mid 90s. Nothing that really caught my attention. In 97, I got a hold of a compliation from Love Parade that year. That was the first time I heard RMB - Break the Silence, PvD - Forbidden Fruit, and Nalin & Kane - Beach Ball.

The track that hooked me was "Break the Silence", but "Forbidden Fruit" reeled me in.

Re-reading that deffinetion you posted helped me figure out what I was trying to say.

Some trance has vocals, some deosnt. trance is made to be played in sets by DJs. If you played all "big" vocal tracks,your set wouldnt go anywhere. Instrumental tracks are great to get oyur set moving. Start out with a chilled vocal track, go into some instrumental to get the crowd going, then throw down that "big" track.

I think thats why a lot of people here dont understand trance. They download a track and are bored with it by time the 2 minutes intro is over. You need to take an hour to listen to a well structered set. Thats the way trance is meant to be listened to.

And yes, some of my favorite tracks are instrumental. Solar Stone - Seven Cities, Marou Picotto - Back to Cali, and Energy 52 - Cafe Del Mar are 3 that get me going every time I hear them.

[~epsilon minus]

Originally posted by NullDevice
At least we've all gotten past sampling "the spice must flow!"

But but but it extends life / expands consciousness!! I refuse to move whilst travelling!!!

(I am being a smarta55 today, whoopee)

[~NullDevice]

He who controls the spice, controls the universe.

But why does he want the duke's *son* killed?

[~epsilon minus]

Originally posted by NullDevice
At least we've all gotten past sampling "the spice must flow!"

But but but it extends life / expands consciousness!! I refuse to move whilst travelling!!!

(I am being a smarta55 today, whoopee)

[~rivetbadtz]

On the subject of:

*The DJ/techno magazines: Their idiots. They never once took notice of any futurepop despites its huge scene in Europe. They are busy trying to push over these insidious 'labels' be it French no wave minimalism disco or electroclash.

*The term 'futurepop'. Sure, Ronan was the one who coined this and spread it around. But he's the niznat, and that term just fits.
Hearing the words 'industrial' in the same sentence as my VNV or Covenant or any other band I love makes me just cringe.
So in a way I love certain labels. 'EBM'(as in the context of modern ebm, not old industrial) and 'Futurepop' are probably my two favorite music labels. Just sounds important and futuristic. Cant say the same for the words 'industrial' or 'goth' which seems as dated as Growing Pains and teased hair.

*stores carrying cds: I absolutely cannot figure out why the bands Im into get erroneously placed in the industrial/goth/metal/etc sections. Geez, passing by the metal cd section is like trying to not look at a car accident. *shivers*

I think futurepop and a lot of synthpop should be placed under
the techno section right alongside BT, Fluke, Underworld, etc.
At least a few of the record stores I know already have VNV, Apop, Cov, and Funker in the 'electronica' section(Yeah I know, it doest get more cheesey than the 1997 media coined term 'electronica')

[~Kirlian Blue]

Originally posted by Ekstasis

Its people like you that give the club scene a bad name<Funny Joke ha ha ha...not.! What are you on about? KB>. 90% of the people I go to trance/techno/house clubs, and even raves, do it sober. I actually think the goth scene has a bigger drinking problem that the trance/techno.house/rave secen has a drug problem. <every UK scene even Rock/Metal/indie has, you cant escape it that is life!!!!! KB>



Scenes none for most violence in UK House/Garage common fact!
Scenes none for least Drug and Alcahol Violene in the UKGoth/metal


I dont get it. I have about 100 UK, and about 40 or so domestic hard house records, and they sound nothing like Apop. < A 100 OF HOW MANY 1000'S
...I've even played HARMONIZER to House head's and they class it as HARDHOUSE.....1 oF THEM IS A hard House DJ..KB>




People like me woooowwww! Come to London a Slimenight people dont drink on the top floor there on speed or pill's..as a goth/ebm/industrial club there are no fights sorry to say!!!! Or least go electric dreams or malice underground there is no violence at Gossips there is aBar.As part of my Damm Culture as an Englishman we Drink and have done since my routes in Saxonia and Scandanavia ..there is no violence in that club either..... Get your facts right before condemming me EKSTASIS...........!!!!!

Ok Hard House night at Ministry two stabbed dead a year and at least 2 shot a year by ...House Fans....Note the UK House scene ...ermm loads of Charlie and Alcahol go to any hard house/house or Garage club and there is violence all night..House generally appeals to the narrowminded in the UK with a few exceptions.

People like me what the hell are you on about!!!! You slam me down you dont knowanything atall about the UK scene which i refer to, Idid not brand the USA and I hope its diffrent .........!

Kirlian Blue! And Proud to be alternative come to theUK and put on your white trainers/blue jeans and ben sherman shirt get a skinhead and your scene will welcome you..or if not they will harm you! Im proud to be condemmed as Goth!

"I drink in Clubs and always will do but never fight!" Kirlian Blue... People like Me..I'll write a song about that ! And sing about the violence and the backward facist people you love so much "



Oh diddms now im tottaly Pissed and Violent and condemmed as Goth sorry but not .......shame really as I love my Trance! and TALLA 2xlc <REMIXED gary numan



oh look were all violent and pissed !!!!!!

[~Eyuva]

Originally posted by stargazer

and jungle and psytrance arent exactly dancefloor type sounds...

play full on psytrance, that stuff is full of powerful dance floor energy.

Originally posted by rivetbadtz

I think futurepop and a lot of synthpop should be placed under
the techno section right alongside BT, Fluke, Underworld, etc.
At least a few of the record stores I know already have VNV, Apop, Cov, and Funker in the 'electronica' section(Yeah I know, it doest get more cheesey than the 1997 media coined term 'electronica')

That's where they are in our local Media Play here in town, although the techno section was recently renamed the "dance" section. So you can pick Ian Van Dahl, PVD, & VNV Nation, as well as Sphongle, in teh dance section. Amoung others... :)

Originally posted by epsilon minus


But but but it extends life / expands consciousness!! I refuse to move whilst travelling!!!

(I am being a smarta55 today, whoopee)

sampling is cool, but some lines were overused, I haven't heard everything, but I heard several samples 3 or more times in different tunes.

some ex.

VNV Nation - Genesis has the same let there be light sample as Astral Projection... Let there be light.

The hardcore group Dune sampled that spice line, as did Astral Projection on Dancing Galaxy..

Magic Affair sampled "all of us on this earth are truly one", then California Sunshine comes out with an Imperia album three years later and takes 3 distinct samples from that Magic Affair album, including that one... LOL

My favorite sample right now is from Astral Projection - Nexus. From Star Trek - Generations. There's some nice philosophical elements in that movie and that's why it's my favorite Star Trek movie. Watch it and find out what the nexus is.

Oh, and Matrix samples are overused and overplayed, it's time for Lord of the Rings samples, as it is a much cooler movie.

Most of the Star Trek samples on Information Society's first album are from the episode "Mirror, Mirror" good episode, nice samples, and a classic synthpop album.

Blah, enough talk of samples for now... :p

Originally posted by Ekstasis

And yes, some of my favorite tracks are instrumental. Solar Stone - Seven Cities, .

Solar Stone makes beautiful music... I remembered hearing Solarcoaster and going, wow, a cool tune. Sounded a lot like PVD's out there & back stuff.

Originally posted by epsilon minus
I, for one, am a huge supporter of "true trance". Too many times, I've bought counterfeit trance records, got them home, dropped them on the platter, and been assaulted with christmas muzak. And nothing makes me angrier than a DJ yanking down the psychedelic mandala backdrops to reveal hidden fly-girl dancers, announcing "HAH, FOOLED YOU MASSIVE INSIDE, FAKE TRANCE IN THE MAIN ROOM LIGHTER CREW MAKE SOME NOOOOOOOISE".

LMAO, I take it you didn't like the Cyber trance presents cyber
x-mas CD then... :)

Originally posted by delobbo
[b]

Go to that link and do a Ctrl-F and search for "vocal" or "vocals" or "lyrics". That's right. Again, I'm not bringing forth this evidence as being set in stone - just some "food for thought"... :)

Definitely there are other forms of trance between "real trance" and "cheese trance"... a lot of the vocal trance I listen to, I would definitely not call "cheese trance".
b>

Real trance is like old Jam & Spoon/Cosmic Baby stuff, it's really old, fairly melodic at times, and quite trancey.

Cheese trance mainly is used to refer to eurodance groups with trancey keyboard sounds... Groups like Lasgo, Ian Van Dahl, Dee Dee, Rimini Project, Noemi, etc. That music isn't trance at all IMO, it's basically a pop song with a 4/4 kick somewhere between 120-150 BPM, some wierd synthwork and a girl singing something about love, flying & freeing your mind.

[~NullDevice]

Oh, *everyone* sampled Dune around 1990-92. Remember Eon's "Void Dweller?" Tracks like "The Spice?" Heh.

And of course, Blade Runner got beaten to death. And Aliens. Both featured heavily on early FLA releases.

Just about anything from the early NASA missions got sampled too, hence the "let there be light" bit. I've heard that in a half-dozen techno songs.

Check Peter Ceihgn's "Top Sample Sources" list - it's amusing and enlightening.

Frankly I think the dialog sample is played out as a musical gimmick.

[~delobbo]

to me - the "real", old skool trance? yeah - you never knew the names of the songs. you'd hear the tracks at dark, "gothic" style clubs... and yeah nobody ever knew the names of the songs or who they were by. and they were REPETITIVE to the extreme. Those were the old skoool trance days, for me my first exposure to this kind was 1992 at Medusa's and Shelter in Chicago. Also Dome Room had some good trance later on.

[~Ekstasis]

You have a point there. Old school trance was really down tempo, repetitive, and monotonous.

The trance I'm into is the Dutch uplifting/epic trance. The stuff that really gets a dance floor going.

There are probably as many types of trance as there are industrial. I'm using industrial in the broadest sense there, the way most people use techno.

[~NullDevice]

Argh you said "techno!"

Now the debate will become "well, *real* techno means x, y isn't techno becasue it's really left-progressive-breakfunk-big-trance nu-lectro poptronica."

:D

[~Ekstasis]

dont get me started.


Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr :)

[~delobbo]

as far as I'm concerned - one of the origins of trance and techno music are in groups like Rush and Styx, to name a couple. Listen to some mid-late 70's Rush and you will hear crazy synth melodies, often of the 1/16th variety - and the oldest "trance" song I know of is "Mr. Roboto" - by Styx. It has all the elements of modern vocal trance. :)

[~pop]

no way.... you are smoking getto crack.
in the early 80s, techno, post modernism started similar time.
all of them learning cheaper made hand me down technology.
they were all influenced by Kraftwerk and New Order.
Manchester dance movement of Breaks came from
New Order, Happy Monday, and Detroit Techno.
New Order was 1st to use synth in dark pop music.
NOT DM... DM SUCKS BALLS.... OK. That's not true.
I like few of their tunes. RUSH was progressive ROCK
and they copied all the great progressive rockers before them.
If you know anything about rock, Rush was big progressive
copy cat band who borrowed New WAve element.

[~delobbo]

Originally posted by pop
no way.... you are smoking getto crack.
in the early 80s, techno, post modernism started similar time.
all of them learning cheaper made hand me down technology.
they were all influenced by Kraftwerk and New Order.
Manchester dance movement of Breaks came from
New Order, Happy Monday, and Detroit Techno.
New Order was 1st to use synth in dark pop music.
NOT DM... DM SUCKS BALLS.... OK. That's not true.
I like few of their tunes. RUSH was progressive ROCK
and they copied all the great progressive rockers before them.
If you know anything about rock, Rush was big progressive
copy cat band who borrowed New WAve element.

you're not understanding my reference to Rush. That's ok, I didn't expect everyone to, as its not totally obvious... I was making an ABSTRACT reference... and I said 70's, not 80's. Not saying the groups you mentioned did not have an influence on trance/techno/dance music in general... they did. I'm just saying that most people would not look to groups like Rush or Styx for having electronic elements...

[~Daft Monk]

Originally posted by rivetbadtz

(Yeah I know, it doest get more cheesey than the 1997 media coined term 'electronica')

While it may seem strange, the term "electronica" was around before the mags abused and changed the term. I was doing an synthpop, techno, industrial, whatever college radio show in 96 when I noticed the term being used to describe tracks that were definitely something a little to the left of what had been lumped in as techno. Most of what fell under the "style" would probably be called laptop techno today, but it's branching off into an umbrella term for electronic music mostly without vocals probably happened with the "Wipeout XL" soundtrack/compilation when they labeled everything on it electronica. The media hype of 1997 picked up the ball and ran with it. It's probably a good thing that a new umbrella term showed up, I was pushing for "electronic" myself, but techno sort of fused in the minds of people outside of the scene as drug od-ing ravers, and mostly instrumental dance like C & C Music Factory and La Bouche. At the very least the hype of 97 was the first time in years that mainstream US mags didn't dismiss electronic automatically.

Here's a side note: I just used the EGN spell check (as I carn't spell to save my life) it doesn't accept the words "synthpop," "electronica," or "techno." Very interesting...

[~Ekstasis]

Everyone I have talked to on differrent trance boards considers New Orders "The Beach", and Georgio Moroders "The Chase" The begining of trance. Oakey will still spin "The Chase" every once in a while.

[~binaryzero]

OMG this whole thread has my head spinning

it's like a pissing contest, and a debated history lesson at the same time.

futurepop is never going to be trance, cuz it's not. it's an adaptation, an new combination of things.

music keeps changing (better or worse) and things will continue to be combined.

i'm thinking my next album will be ebm country tunes.

"i lost my truck..."
00ntz 00ntz 00ntz

[~rivetbadtz]

If trance as far as everyone is talking about was more like Kathy's Song remix(the first remix ont he Kathy's Song single) or Standing (Motion) then you bet I'd be out there seeking it.

I get a kick out of people on some industrial groups who complain industrial all sounds like techno now. heh. It's called evolution baby!

Anyways, Im just here presenting the new ebm sound...futurepop til ya dont stop yo.

[~Eyuva]

Originally posted by binaryzero

i'm thinking my next album will be ebm country tunes.

"i lost my truck..."
00ntz 00ntz 00ntz

slide guitar or acid slides, both have a nice effect on me :)

[~Exitium]

Originally posted by Ekstasis

Chicane - Love on the Run (Rob Searle's Force Five Mix)

Rob Searle's mix of the song is actually a pretty fine example of how a good song can sound horrendously wrong with the result of poor mixing and very little ingenuity. It's not a 'bad' song per se as the original riffs are it's only saving grace, but Rob Searle really screwed up the riffs in the middle of the song with his awful rendition.

If anything, I'd recommend listening to Chicane's other songs, especially Autumn Tactics (the original, the Thrillseekers remix, and Chicane's End of Summer Mix, which is a hyped up Spanish-esque rendition of the song) which is my favorite piece of his.

Some other good songs include Saltwater, Offshore, and Halcyon. For the full effect, I recommend listening to all the songs on his 'Behind the Sun' album, in proper order.

If you feel that the Industial/Synthpop genre is getting old (and I feel the same way about the genre in general), I seriously recommend listening to some NASA for some 80s sounding new-wave type stuff which is actually pretty cool, Seabound for their excellent psychologically involved lyrics and awesome music, Iris' Awakening album which is totally indescribable (I just can't have enough of it), and Virtual Server (which is DJ Ram's project). The song "Bullet" is my favorite of Virtual Server.

Also, be sure to check out some ambience/progressive (though I'm not sure you can even describe it as such) type stuff. Most of the songs by The Alpha Conspiracy (Andrew Sega, who also programmed Iris' Awakening album) are excellent to listen to, and are among my favorites. You might also want to look up his .mod/.it/.s3m old songs from when he called himself Necros.

Oh yeah, don't forget to look up Reflection Theory (www.reflectiontheory.com) for some of their songs. I like "Hand of Time" in particular.

What a mouthful!

Edit Update:
All in all, screw subgenres. Just listen to the good stuff and forget the bad. Most of that 'trance' stuff people play in clubs happens to be crap. Like an earlier poster said, most of them don't even make it into albums and the people who produce them don't make more than 2-3 songs, all in all. The worst part about it is that they sound exactly like every other group in the 'subgenre'.

I think that there's a reason you don't hear anyone mimicking Chicane, Iris, Alpha Conspiracy, and so on: it's because they're original.

Oh yeah, Colony 5 makes for a pretty terrific listen. I happen to think that they sound pretty good. They sound like a faster Assemblage 23 with lighter instruments - like Minority Report's 'clean future' as opposed to Blade Runner's 'dark future'. Check them out sometime, if you haven't already.

I'm all for the dissolution of subgenres. Electronic music in general would sound a lot better with subgenres out of the picture. Personally, I wouldn't mind listening to a Ambient/Melodic Trance track with DNB percussion. Why should anyone else mind?

[~DuracellDJ]

Lookie..

I am only posting so this thread never dies and all of you get flooded in your inbox with "reply to"modern" ebm bands = mediocre trance records"

I have been a trance fan for many years now, and left the dark scene in the early days for the rave scene in about 1992. I came back in about 1997 and within one year I began to notice the overall influence of my beloved trance (which I never and still never tire of) and my beloved EBM. I could not be happier.

Two of my favorite trance tracks of all time:

Cygnus X: The Orange Theme
Binary Finary: 1998 (Paul Van Dyk remix)

BUT there are many, many more. What I love about trance without vocals? Well, there is no pretense.. no using lyrics to make the songs.. the songs are only the music. That's it. I challenge anyone to listen to just these two tracks and say they aren't symphony's. Lyrics would totally abort their meaning.. they are happy, sad.. how do I know that? You can hear it in the music.

Still, to this day some of the greatest and most loved music of all time is: Classical. Most of classical music is without lyrics and yet, is considered some of the most emotional music ever written. No lyrics means I can decide what it means. I often think that songs with lyrics can disguise themselves.. adding the lyrics and vocals may often mean the music loses, rather than gains, some element. Lyrics and vocals should never be the soulful intent of a composition, only one layer (unless it is the only layer).

Don't get me wrong, I love EBM and actually I LOVE more agro EBM (and the LYRICS), and it serves well for me, but to discount the influence of trance on EBM as hazardous is to not really know anything about trance and how intricate it's layers are.. some trance tracks do border on classical music with the level of layers and the complexity of it's framework. The best trance is nothing short of a symphony.

AND the best of the newest EBM remixed with trance is some of the EBM tracks (aka music for me) I have ever heard.

P.S. Look back at this thread. One fella who posted "Delobbo" who doesn't like to be a bost.. I encourage all of you to check out his remixes, because right now it is some of the best remixes out there. He incorporates both trance and the more minimal techno (kinda like symphony vs. chamber music.. hahahaha). He has now remixed for Implant (alfa matrix), Monolithic (add), Echoing Green (add), Epsilon Minus (alfa matrix), and coming soon.. many, many more artists we love..

kisses to your inbox..

copper-top

[~Midihead]

Yessssery...good 'ol chap, that Delobbo. He'd always post his remixes here at the Garden and I'd go check 'em out. I liked his work and approached him. I'm greatful that he agreed to grace my last MCD with his skillz. I'm very happy to hear that he's been keeping busy doing remix projects. The man deserves it.

I too have been keeping busy with remix projects...working on a few dark remixes. Currently underway with Daybehavior. Here's a link to the last one I did if anyone wants to spin it at a club. I encoded it at 256 so it sounds decent. It's only up for a limited time! Enjoy!

www.midihead.com/downloads/pushme.mp3

[~delobbo]

Thanks for the kind words Ms. Copper-top.. :D Also thank you Midihead for giving me the opportunity to remix your track, I think that really "set the stage" for me. I can't say thanks enough.

I'm very excited about all the new music coming out now, it seems like there is a "new wave" of synthpop/ebm/electro, and an accompanying enthusiasm.

I think Ms. Copper-top is helping the scene immensely, first with her DJ mix cd released on Tonedeaf (featuring multi-label artists/tracks, a BIG plus), and then with her seemingly never-ending DJ tour she is currently on, definitely increasing the exposure and scope of our scene.

As for me, I just got back 2 days ago from Winter Music Conference (http://www.wintermusicconference.com) in Miami, which is basically a week-long music festival / party. It was just amazing. I had the opportunity to hang out with Tiesto for a while at a club, he is a really cool guy, and very approachable.

Given the breadth of various stages (10, considerably more than last year), DJ's, and genres of music they had setup at the grand finale Ultra 5 music festival on Saturday, I can totally envision Copper-top playing there at next year's conference. And with 40,000 electronic dance music fans on hand, the exposure would be nothing short of incredible. I will have pictures up soon, got some great shots of Tiesto working the decks. Also attended a few seminars about music production and techniques, given by Crystal Method, Deepsky, and BT. BT is just amazing with the technological innovations he is pursuing - with his current setup, he can literally remix a track, while playing it, live. I saw him do it too, I was just awe-struck. Ok anyways, I will have pics of those too.

Rubin
http://delobbo.com

ps. Midihead that is an absolute killer remix of "Push Me Over" you got there.... in particular I loved the stereo phasing of the various pieces you used throughout the remix. Now I must hear it played loud at a club!!! Maybe Copper-top can help with that!!! :D

Has this been released yet? If so where, when, what label, things like that....

delobbo

[~Midihead]

Hey Delobbo!

I'd like to see those pics, man. The guys you listed are truly inspirational geniuses to me. Especially BT. I hung out with Crystal method back stage at a rave once during the Sundance Film Festival. They were so smashed...but very cool to hang with. Nice guys. Thanks for the feedback on the remix. I know that this thread is getting a bit off-topic with this stuff...but I totally appreciate it.

Actually, this remix is sort of up in the air. It was originally intended for TV, like most of the stuff this writer does. But when he heard this remix, he was like, "we need to try to get this in clubs, man". So, I'm awaiting to see if he'll do a pressing. I thought I'd get a jump on it, put it up for DJ's to snag and see what they can do with it. I know of many underground songs that got popular this way. We shall see. Would be cool if Copper-top added it to the set.

Cheerz,

-Midihead

[~delobbo]

Sounds good. Yeah Crystal Method has been one of my favorites ever since their album "Vegas" - really captivating work. Well I hope you get that track in the clubs. For what it's worth, I'll tell you this - if I ever start DJ'ing at clubs again (which I do want to do, soon), I would be sure to play it!!

delobbo
"I miss Miami!!!"

[~Midihead]

I Dj'ed in Ft. Lauderdale and Miami back in '94. Had to leave though because the humidity was KILLING me. So Cal climate is PERFECT. Let me know when you get those pics developed!

Cheerz,

-Midihead

[~delobbo]

Originally posted by Midihead
I Dj'ed in Ft. Lauderdale and Miami back in '94. Had to leave though because the humidity was KILLING me. So Cal climate is PERFECT. Let me know when you get those pics developed!

Cheerz,

-Midihead

Oh yeah? Where'd you DJ at in Miami? Any place I would know? Miami Beach? South Beach? SoCal huh.... Chicago has been bumming me out lately, the cold season seems like it just won't go away!! Going to Miami for a week did not help. I need to move somewhere warm!! damnit... :D

What about earthquakes in Cal, don't you have to worry about those?

ok it's too late to turn back now - this thread is way off-topic...

delobbo

[~delobbo]

here's some teaser pics of Tiesto........ the originals are all at 1600x1200...... :D :D

delobbo

what? i can't post more than one attachment in a row? :<

quick someone else post a reply - so I can put up another pic.. :)

delobbo

[~hornblas]

Hey don't worry about the earthquakes. They don't happen everyday. Big quakes are actually few and far between. So come on out and enjoy the sunshine...

[~Eyuva]

Trance was originally influenced by EBM, so it doesn't surprise me that EBM is taking on a more trancey sound, I've heard some similarities between the new EBM sound & trance, but I dont consider new EBM to be musically weak, when really it's the vocals for the most part that I cant stand in the new style EBM.

I prefer the European female vocal trance's vocals over EBM vocals anyday.

[~SynthezObserver]

so now can anyone who doesnt really like oomps oomps basslines explain me pliz why all those myriads of djs and artists use a "REMIX" tools to stuff up the holes in the albums????
isnt it again a refined variant of recycling oomps oomps basslines some one already had eaten and [cencored]

Mike?? Delobbo?????

[~delobbo]

hey Midihead - check out the WMC pics I posted about earlier, IN THIS THREAD........ (http://www.electrogarden.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=6368)

SynthezObserver I will have my answer for your good question, soon....

delobbo

[~distraub]

delobbo,

Just wanted to say I love the remix you did for implant... I had the pleasure of mastering it for uturn2

-alex-

[~Midihead]

Synthez,

I make my own ump tss ump tss loops with Reason's Redrum. But, yea it's basically the same formula across the entire ump tss ump tss land. The natural design of the ump tss ump tss (4 on the floor) is that it instantly makes you want to dance. It works for me.

Delobbo,

I'll check out the pics. Sometimes it doesn't work when you attach pics to the posts...don't know why. The ones you posted earlier obviously didn't get attached.

Cheerz,

-Midihead

[~Scar Chemik]

Originally posted by Midihead
The natural design of the ump tss ump tss (4 on the floor) is that it instantly makes you want to dance. It works for me.


Four on the floor is more than just a formula, it simply is the dance beat for clubs.

Its hard to get 'into the groove' on a 3/4. I know that as an artist, when I am writing a song, after a bit of playing and programming the song is screaming at me PLEASE PUT IN A oomp tss oomp tss BEAT!!!! So I put it in and immediately the song comes to life. The energy that that beat infuses in the song is the critical element of a dance floor track.

Where EBM screws up occasionally is when they overuse vocal or drum distortion and crowd out the heartbeat of the song. People subconsciously want to hear that rhythm. Claus Larson understood that fairly well, Mentallo and others didn't.

Scar

[~binaryzero]

let me just go on record with a complete too much information moment:

to sex 3/4 is just awkward...

sex to the U-turn series: you just couldn't get any better!

[thank you.]

[~delobbo]

Originally posted by SynthezObserver
so now can anyone who doesnt really like oomps oomps basslines explain me pliz why all those myriads of djs and artists use a "REMIX" tools to stuff up the holes in the albums????
isnt it again a refined variant of recycling oomps oomps basslines some one already had eaten and [cencored]

Mike?? Delobbo?????

ok SynthezObserver -

The main idea behind my response to your question is going to consist of two words: club play. There simply is no substitute for the classic "4-on-the-floor" definition, as Midihead has also described. Go to any club across the world, and that formula is the basic staple of the great majority of dance club music. Go see any global DJ like Tiesto, Oakenfold, PvD, anyone - and that is going to be the GREAT majority, if not complete majority, of what they play. Certainly there will be breaks in between, but generally speaking. I saw Oakenfold spin twice in Miami, and he did play a couple of tracks that did not follow this paradigm, and they were cool, and it was cool to hear him spin it. But those tracks just did not have the same energy and crowd appeal as the classic 4-on-the-floor tracks. Those just POUND and make you want to dance. Play something else, and its like you want to take a breather, unless of course those tracks are really rocking, in terms of their other components (like bass, synths, other things).

In regards to why artists choose to put remixes on their albums, having been a fan of remixes myself since I can remember, I can only say, "the more the merrier". Obviously it's not the quantity but the quality - but still - if you can have two remixes of a song rather than 1, and both are good, why not? I live for groups like Shamen that release hordes of remixes. Their classic hit "Move any Mountain" had a limited edition CD release that had no less than 14 remixes, most good. Also a 3LP set that had even more remixes. Remixes often are more likely to get club play than the original versions of tracks. Does this mean that the original versions are overlooked? No. Just that for certain applications, certain remixes are more likely to be played in a club setting, than the original tracks. Club play gets an artist great exposure, since it touches many many people, people that may have never heard of them otherwise. People who may then go up to the DJ and ask, "what is this???" with great enthusiasm. This is a great way for people to find new music.

Also, lately I have noticed that artists are putting more and more remixes on their releases, be it singles, or albums, or limited editions. I think this indirectly is tied in with the whole digital music sharing issues we are having presently (mp3 sharing). Artists like Mesh are publicly open about this too, letting it be clear that hey, we are giving you a considerable amount of music to listen to here on this new single (like "Friends Like These"), at least show some ounce of support by purchasing the product, so we can continue to make the music. I used to always try to collect as many remixes of a track I loved, as possible. Sure there were some I didn't like, but I just liked to HAVE them. :) Also they know people like varieties of music, I think having a lot of remixes of a track increases its appeal.

Scar Chemik I have to agree with you - sometimes when I am doing a remix, I will start out with a basic formula, and tell myself, ok I want to do something other than "oontz oontz" or whatever you wanna call it... so I will start out with a minimal formula, and eventually end up with the "oontz oontz" simply because it gives the track more energy. Also I have to say, for all the remixes I have done so far, I have kept club play in mind as kind of a "focus" on these remixes, so that may show through with the "oontz oontz".

In the end, it just becomes a question of what sounds better on the dance floor. What makes people move. "Ooontz oontz" makes people move. Can other things make people move? yes. "Ooontz oontz" is just more likely to.

Definitely I want to explore other things also, and I will be (and have been), but for now I don't have a problem with relying on the tried-and-tested formula, for the club remix work I have been doing. Sure I can vary it up a bit, but the "oontz oontz" is what really gets a track moving.

Originally posted by distraub
delobbo,

Just wanted to say I love the remix you did for implant... I had the pleasure of mastering it for uturn2

-alex-

hey thanks - I must say the mastering is excellent!! I myself tried to the best of my ability to get the most sound out of my productions, but it just doesn't happen!! HOW do you do it!! seriously is it all hardware-based, hardware/software, or all software? It's just splendid, whatever/however you do it. :D

I have the Sonar XL suite with the "mastering" plugins, but I haven't been able to get that to help me with anything, same goes for the other mastering plugins I have. The most luck I've had is with Waves Ultramaximizer, set to "16-bit final master" - but even this falls short of a true mastered track... I'll have to just keep messing with things until I find it!!!

Of course, I've heard that you should not master your own track, it should be mastered by someone else - someone who "does mastering" - just so that you are not swayed by your own personal biases in the track, and also the fact that you have already heard the track so many times, your ears can fool you. or something. is it true.....

delobbo

[~Midihead]

Hey Delobbo,

Man...are we off topic, but here goes...

About mastering, you are correct. Some of the finest work I've heard was done on DeepSky's "In Silico". Maximum levels, maximum boom, very low distortion. I can't get any of my tracks to sound THAT good either. I did master "Dividing Asunder" myself because I simply ran out of time to have someone else do it. I thought that it was a mistake, like when I mastered "Power Undiminished" myself. But actually it turned out fine in my case. Even Todd (ADD) seemed happy with the results. A lot has to do with practice. I am getting better at it, no doubt as even one of the guys I do TV music for has mentioned that my mastered tracks sound really good (the newer stuff I've done). So, I believe that you can master your own stuff...but it is best to find someone who can be more objective with it that you, like you aforementioned. If you can find someone who can do the same job that was done on the DeepSky album, and not break your bank, you're in great shape. BTW, I use Waves mastering plugins and they work way better than ANYTHING else I've tried. The L2 has better algorithms that the L1 and noticeably sounds better. Before I maximize though, I use Waves Linear Phase EQ and Multiband Compressor. The mastering plugins, when used properly blow other plugins like T-Rex out of the water. I tried T-Racks once and wonder why people rave about it so much...talk about colored sound and distortion. Anyway, here's an interesting write-up on the plugins that have transformed my mixes:

http://www.waves.com/htmls/press/Waves_Mastering_bundle.pdf

Enjoy!

[~delobbo]

hey thanks for the suggestions Midihead, I'm checking out that PDF now.

delobbo

[~mixsolflix]

Originally posted by delobbo
as far as I'm concerned - one of the origins of trance and techno music are in groups like Rush and Styx, to name a couple. Listen to some mid-late 70's Rush and you will hear crazy synth melodies, often of the 1/16th variety - and the oldest &quot;trance&quot; song I know of is &quot;Mr. Roboto&quot; - by Styx. It has all the elements of modern vocal trance. :)

You can go back even further than that to the late 60s groups like the Silver
Apples who used repetitive sequences and a live drummer to me that stuff
could be called early trance to,of course this group was pratically unknown
throughout the years but their stuff has been reissued lately

Back then they would have been called pyschadelic but if they were to come out now i would personally call it trance.

[~delobbo]

hey mixsolflix! that is cool, I'll see if I can find some Silver Apples somewhere, I would love to hear what it sounds like.

delobbo

[~mixsolflix]

Originally posted by delobbo
hey mixsolflix! that is cool, I'll see if I can find some Silver Apples somewhere, I would love to hear what it sounds like.

delobbo

go here for a start, i don't think they have any audio but ,since their stuff has
been reissued it shouldn't be so hard to find

http://www.silverapples.com

[~delobbo]

Originally posted by mixsolflix


go here for a start, i don't think they have any audio but ,since their stuff has
been reissued it shouldn't be so hard to find

http://www.silverapples.com

I just heard "Seagreen Serenades" by Silver Apples.... you're right.. this could be minimal trance type material... it reminds me of "Love You More" by Sunscreem... came out in the 90's, and was kind of a "live" trance group... definitely has trance elements, also reminds me of "psy-trance"... very cool..

delobbo

[~hornblas]

I agree the 4/4 can be a bit old. But nothing moves a dancefloor, like a bit oontz, oontz. I have a started mixing breaks with my 4/4 (I know it's not new), this seems to add something a little different to the tried and true; without clearing the dancefloor. I liked a lot of Sasha's new album for this reaon.

[~delobbo]

Originally posted by Midihead
snip

..... I did master "Dividing Asunder" myself because I simply ran out of time to have someone else do it. I thought that it was a mistake, like when I mastered "Power Undiminished" myself. But actually it turned out fine in my case. Even Todd (ADD) seemed happy with the results. A lot has to do with practice. I am getting better at it, no doubt as even one of the guys I do TV music for has mentioned that my mastered tracks sound really good (the newer stuff I've done). So, I believe that you can master your own stuff...but it is best to find someone who can be more objective with it that you, like you aforementioned.

snip

Midihead, I think you did a fine job mastering "Dividing Asunder". It sounds great!!! especially really loud!! :D :D

oh yeah and ... I think EBM is the bast_ard child of trance, industrial, classical, techno, metal, and "electronica" in general!!!

ok I typed "bast*rd" and it got censored???? what is this supposed to be some kind of candy-coated existence?? I mean it's not like I wrote ¤¤¤¤ ¤¤¤¤ ¤¤¤¤ ¤¤¤¤ ¤¤¤¤ ¤¤¤¤ :) I think "bast*rd" used to be a "bad" word.... in the early 1900's. :D

delobbo

[~epsilon minus]

Originally posted by delobbo
Scar Chemik I have to agree with you - sometimes when I am doing a remix, I will start out with a basic formula, and tell myself, ok I want to do something other than &quot;oontz oontz&quot;
delobbo

Man, I give you the EM award for Achievement in Music Forums for breaking the record for # of "oontz oontz" references in a single post. 00ntz00ntz00ntz00ntz.

[~Midihead]

Hahahaha! That was funny. Thanks Epsilon Minus. Was having a very bad day...the laugh was a great relief.

Thanks Delobbo for the reassurance about my mastering job. Incidentally...if anyone wants their CD mastered, just let me know! I think I've got the hang of it now...and the rates are low!

That said...have a great day everyone!

oontz oontz oontz oontz (fades into silence)

-Midihead

[~delobbo]

Originally posted by epsilon minus


Man, I give you the EM award for Achievement in Music Forums for breaking the record for # of "oontz oontz" references in a single post. 00ntz00ntz00ntz00ntz.

hah Bogart that is awesome, I admit it was not easy to say oontz oontz that many times in one post. However, it's clear that I did not use oontz oontz in the correct spelling, which should have been "00ntz 00ntz". Therefore, I cannot accept this award. I shall turn this award over instead, to its actual recipient of such distinguished honor, and that can only be binaryzero, for his post ascertaining why the 4/4 theme is important to his personal life. LOL........

ps. Bogart you are a madman, but I think you already know that.

:D :D

delobbo
http://delobbo.com

[~epsilon minus]

Midihead: anytime ;)

Delobbo: 00ntz comes in many shapes, sizes, and in fact, spellings. The award still belongs to you. *presents you with a bronzed 909 statuette*

[~delobbo]

ok ok ok ........ I accept..... thank you, thank you, thank you. :D :D

delobbo

[~Mico R]

Originally posted by Eyuva
Trance was originally influenced by EBM, so it doesn't surprise me that EBM is taking on a more trancey sound, I've heard some similarities between the new EBM sound & trance, but I dont consider new EBM to be musically weak, when really it's the vocals for the most part that I cant stand in the new style EBM.

I prefer the European female vocal trance's vocals over EBM vocals anyday.

trance came out long before EBM did. the term "EBM" was not used until recently. if you are sayin trance was originaly influenced by industrial, that is different. we may call FRont 242 ebm now, but back in 1987 it was known as something else..\

MICO

[~Eyuva]

Originally posted by Mico R


trance came out long before EBM did. the term "EBM" was not used until recently. if you are sayin trance was originaly influenced by industrial, that is different. we may call FRont 242 ebm now, but back in 1987 it was known as something else..\

MICO

Yeah, Front 242 is the classic example of the key influence to the trance genre... I think though trance was influenced by many things, from house, to EBM, to synthpop even. Just my experience having listened to lots of trance & trancepop.

Originally posted by delobbo

and that can only be binaryzero, for his post ascertaining why the 4/4 theme is important to his personal life. LOL........

http://delobbo.com

The 4/4 kick is nice, the perfect dance rhythm, much better than the populist boom, boom, chok sound of contempory Top 40 radio. One can only handle so much, boom - boom - chok.

[~Midihead]

So....what would you stylistically classify my latest Day Behavior/Droom remix as? Does anyone care to listen? Let me know and I'll email you a special link. No one has heard this remix as of yet...would be really cool to get some feedback. Contact me, and I'll hook ya up. It's Midihead gone to the dark side. Bwooaahahaha.

Cheerz,

Midihead

[~delobbo]

Originally posted by Midihead
So....what would you stylistically classify my latest Day Behavior/Droom remix as? Does anyone care to listen? Let me know and I'll email you a special link. No one has heard this remix as of yet...would be really cool to get some feedback. Contact me, and I'll hook ya up. It's Midihead gone to the dark side. Bwooaahahaha.

Cheerz,

Midihead

me me me.... pls send link. :D :D

delobbo

[~binaryzero]

send it over to me as well,i like absorbing just about anything electronic...

[~delobbo]

Midihead - I really like where you went with this track. Very unpredictable with its FX sounds and other various pieces, when I was listening it was like I was just waiting anxiously to hear what you would put in next. Very nicely done, I like the "explorational" direction you're going in with these remixes.

delobbo

[~Midihead]

Thanks Delobbo! Yea, this one is out there. I had to change the mood with that trasition part so as to break up the monotany and sort of put the listener on a rollercoaster of emotion, if you will. I'm happy to hear that you like it.

BinaryZero and everyone else, I'm going to hold off on sharing this with anyone else for the moment because of some pending issues. I'll get you a link as soon as possible. Sorry 'bout that.

Cheerz,

-Midihead

[~distraub]

Originally posted by delobbo


hey thanks - I must say the mastering is excellent!! I myself tried to the best of my ability to get the most sound out of my productions, but it just doesn't happen!! HOW do you do it!! seriously is it all hardware-based, hardware/software, or all software? It's just splendid, whatever/however you do it. :D

I have the Sonar XL suite with the "mastering" plugins, but I haven't been able to get that to help me with anything, same goes for the other mastering plugins I have. The most luck I've had is with Waves Ultramaximizer, set to "16-bit final master" - but even this falls short of a true mastered track... I'll have to just keep messing with things until I find it!!!

Of course, I've heard that you should not master your own track, it should be mastered by someone else - someone who "does mastering" - just so that you are not swayed by your own personal biases in the track, and also the fact that you have already heard the track so many times, your ears can fool you. or something. is it true.....

delobbo

Sorry for the delayed response.... For my mastering I use 2 tools. T-racks 24 and wavlab. I run it through t-racks a couple of times only doing one or 2 things to it at a time. I have found that if I compress and eq a tthe same time it doesn't do either as well as doing them seperatley. Then I bring it into wavlab to add warmth and limit, and normalize.

I master my own tracks, and I actually find I can get the best production and sound out of mastering my own. I think it is because when I choose my instruments I have my mastering technique in mind. I have been branching out more though, and have been tasked with mastering different styles, but club driven punch monsters are my specialty as far as mastering goes :)

take care

-alex-

[~ultrasynthetic]

Looks as though this thread has dried up long ago but I'm posting anyway.

The term Ebm was around long before Trance was conceived. The first time I heard the Ebm sound was in 1983, from a little known band called Front 242. I know a lot of people think 242 is Industrial but that's incorrect. Industrial reared it's menacing head in 1979 by the band Einsturzende Neubaten. Using various power tools and hitting pieces of metal with hammers their music was dubbed Industrial. That to me will always be the Industrial music sound. So it seems that nobody does Industrial music anymore because I have not heard anything like that since the Neubaten albums of the mid to late 80's. Front 242 on the other hand was the perfect sound of Ebm. With their four on the floor beats and crunching hard edged synth sound, who could deny that wasnt "Electronic Body Music". I needed to hear more from this form of music even though 242 were obvious masters, so I went out and purchased two compilations entitled "World of Electronic Body Music" and "Another World - Electronic Body Music" (1986/1987). Here I was turned onto bands like A Split Second, Neon Judgment, Men 2nd and In Sotto Voce. This was Ebm at it's finest. This sounded nothing like what Trance was to sound like in the distant future, seeing has how trance emerged out of techno. Enough about the history of Ebm, I just wanted to make sure people knew that Ebm has been around for about 20 years now.
"Real" Trance (which I was heavily into around the mid 90's) in my opinion has been dead or dormant since 1996. You see as of 1997 and on the trance sound changed dramatically and became more accessible to everyone, and the artists and Dj's all began to sound virtually the same. I haven't heard a decent Trance record in ages. It's like they all forgot how to produce it. They all sound like Ferry Corsten, Paul Van Dyk and Astral Projection. I miss the old days as many of you probably do.
However, I do not agree that the modern Ebm bands sound like mediocre trance records. What I would agree to is that the Trance, Ebm and the Futurepop communities sound similar in the fact that they all use a lot of the same equipment
Anyway, I hate labels and have for a long time now, since all the different classifications became so twisted and misused that nobody knew up from down.
All I know is I don't listen to top 40 or the mainstream sound, I listen to "Electronic Music". Music created by synthesizers and drum machines and I wouldn't have it any other way.
So in closing, Ebm is not the ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ child of trance, techno or electronica, it's one of the fathers of electronic music. Read "Industrial Revolution" by Dave Thompson, the history is all there.