VNV NATION BURNT over BURNING EMPIRES

[~Tekkrokk]

I can't contain my frustration over not being able to get my hands on a copy of Burning Empires. As a relatively newer fan of VNV, I have the option of either paying obscene prices from crooks on EBAY (averaging well over $75) or downloading the MP3's. Neither is an acceptable option for me. I'm not that much of a fanatic or wealthy enough to justify paying that much money for a used CD.

A few months ago, I participated in a thread which condemned Apoptygma Berzerk and their record label, which was re-issuing their back catalogue, including the formerly limited edition APBL 98. I came to the defense of APB by simply stating that there should be no "limited editions" in the first place. In other words, both newer and older fans deserve the chance to buy this music at a reasonable price. As an owner of the APBL 98 CD, I can honestly say that I bought it for the music, not because it can increase in value.

Anyway, I know a lot of people that already own "Burning Empires" would be upset over the possibility of a re-issue. But I strongly believe that this should be done!

Does anyone agree?

[~Provision]

yha it should re-issued. i hate limited edtions.
you know what i hate more is when they release a cd somewhere with say 10 tracks
then a limited edtion with 13 tracks somewhere else..
that really pisses me off..why not release the same verson everwhere...
its one of the reasons i dont buy meny cds.
becouse i know somewhere theres a better verson of the cd,.

[Avil]

Limited editions only favour "old" fans, just as someone said. If I suddenly becomes a hardcore VNV fan, I wont have a change to make my collection complete without spending a fortune!!
I don´t think there is anything to do about this now, limited editions should be limited for that reason, but then, you shouldn´t be upset over the fact that many people burn e.g. Burning Empires.

It´s just like AV´s Dreamscapes, if you just become a big fan, be ready to pay like $300 for it...That isn´t a small amount of money...not if you compare it with the $180 I payed for it.

Christina

[~Paradoxxx]

Originally posted by Tekkrokk
I can't contain my frustration over not being able to get my hands on a copy of Burning Empires. As a relatively newer fan of VNV, I have the option of either paying obscene prices from crooks on EBAY (averaging well over $75) or downloading the MP3's. Neither is an acceptable option for me. I'm not that much of a fanatic or wealthy enough to justify paying that much money for a used CD.


Not finding Burning Empires now is the Gods punishment to you, for beeing elsewhere listening to something else when Burning Empires was released. :p

It's indeed a pitty that new fans can't get their hands on Burning Empires nowadays, and we can only hope it gets re-released at some point. If they re-release the CD , the greedy fans that just love to brag about the limited limited limited edition thay have in their collection (and that they end up not playing 'cause it's too precious), will always have the possibility to brag about the fact they have the "1st rare edition with a different cover" and they will please all other newer fans by releasing all those great tracks for them to listen to. :)
Considering Dependent holds the rights on that CD (I think), if VNV Nation gets big enough on a major label, maybe they'll release it again just to "milk the cow" a bit more. :)

[~Tekkrokk]

Originally posted by Avil
.... but then, you shouldn´t be upset over the fact that many people burn e.g. Burning Empires.

It´s just like AV´s Dreamscapes, if you just become a big fan, be ready to pay like $300 for it...That isn´t a small amount of money...not if you compare it with the $180 I payed for it.

Christina

I'm not at all upset over people burning the CD, especially one that is out of print. In fact to quote Fahnuir, that in itself is God's punishment on the record label for making limited editions in the first place. Any fan with a burned copy of Burning Empires should feel justified in having it.

Alphaville's Dreamscapes (which I happen to proudly own AND listen to) is kind of different in that it costs a lot more to make than a simple CD or double CD. I think the limited manufacturing of Dreamscapes is validated by that alone.

[Avil]

Originally posted by Tekkrokk


I'm not at all upset over people burning the CD, especially one that is out of print. In fact to quote Fahnuir, that in itself is God's punishment on the record label for making limited editions in the first place. Any fan with a burned copy of Burning Empires should feel justified in having it.

Alphaville's Dreamscapes (which I happen to proudly own AND listen to) is kind of different in that it costs a lot more to make than a simple CD or double CD. I think the limited manufacturing of Dreamscapes is validated by that alone.

Yes I guess I agree.
I wonder what the reason for limited editions are in the first hand? Just to make more money? Reward the fast fans?
Just to release something special?

And about Alphaville´s Dreamscapes. Luckily, I become a fan right in time to be able to get one. And yes, it´s not an ordinary limited release, so I can understand how they reasoned.

Christina

[~DJfuligin]

I'm not big on burning CDs, especially for stuff on this scene (which never sell that many copies in general), but if something is out of print, go and burn it. The artist isn't loosing any money, so I say go ahead.

[~Grey Area]

personally, I don't think you're missing much anyway. I thought burning empires was pretty disappointing. most of the remixes hardly differ at all from the originals, and the "standing" single you can get pretty much anywhere. the only songs worth owning the disc for are the vocal version of "saviour" empires and one of the b-side tracks "further".

[~rockstarbunny]

Word. Limited Editions are not practical. I would love to have BURNING EMPIRES but I'm not willing to sell my soul for one, Auction off my first born, or sell my organs for one! I'm surprised that a re-issue hasn't been made yet! Web-Mongers on Ebay and Ioffer.com can dine on caviar for what they sell it for! Just this week I saw it going for $115.00. Whats up with that!? Can we start an online petition for a Re-Issue?

[~morph_73]

I agree to spend 100 $ + for Burning Empires is obsurd. Of course I love all of what vnv has put out so far. I believe to horde the good music from there following is a sad move. I would say download what ya can of the album, if they were about the money they would still be releasing it. I personally have all of there work in my collection, and have been a long time follower of there music. I get sick of people feeling like there better then others for being in the right place , and the right scene at the right time to be apart of a genre.Then cashing in on that fact. Such ego's keep others from being inspired from there art, and perhaps growing from it .. into a artist that could have inspired you at a later date.

[~Paradoxxx]

Originally posted by morph_73
I get sick of people feeling like there better then others for being in the right place , and the right scene at the right time to be apart of a genre.Then cashing in on that fact. Such ego's keep others from being inspired from there art, and perhaps growing from it .. into a artist that could have inspired you at a later date.

I do hope this was not directed at my earlier "not supposed to be taken seriously" comment about God's punishment.
There is in fact people that get all full of sh1t because "they were on the this or that scene when this or that artist was still selling demo tapes at gigs that had 10 persons attending", and they consider themselves special and wise and whatever else.
Just don't be bothered with them.

As for limited editions... they are a fact from life, so unless we all go demonstrate in front of the labels offices, they'll keep doing it. It's a marketing strategy also... sell limited editions when things come out, to get sales as high as possible at release time so some people will buy it now instead of later, in fear they don't find the limited at a later time.
It's a sad thing but I do fall for those strategies. I'll make sure I get the new Melotron fast before that limited 2CD edition is sold out, 'cause I want the extra 20 minutes track that comes with it. Not 'cause "it's limited and prrrrrecccccioussss" but 'cause I love Melotron's work, I want the track, and if possible without having to make a copy from somebody else.

[~m-linc]

Music should never be limited by "editions"!
If it's made becoz the artist has something to say then why not say it with enough copies!

[~Human Clone]

At the risk of sounding unpopular I really like limited editions. I am strongly against them being re-issued. As a "collector" of cds I like owning something that is not mass produced. I was one of the lucky ones that bought a couple of copies of Burning Empires when it was first released, I think I paid $17 US. In fact I still have a sealed copy that I have put away in case anything happens to the original.

I jumped at the chance to purchase De/vision's "Remixed" limited edition cd with the extra remix disc. Also Neuroactive's "Neurology" was another.

I agree there are a couple of Limited cds that I did not get at the time of their release and I have had to hunt them down on the secondary market, quite often paying a premium. Unfortunately as a collector this just goes with the territory.

My advice is to just keep your eyes and ears open, I had a friend find a copy of "Burning Empires" at a used cd store. The hunt is half of the fun.

[~Dan1boy]

I agree with Human Clone. Limited Editions allow the artists/labels to thank their loyal, supporting fans FIRST with something unusually 'special' such as the infamous "Burning Empires" or "Remixed" or Melotron's new CD. It's also a matter a being at the right place at the right time. And don't forget, Limited Editions tend to cost a little bit more than a standard release, so the people who are willing to loosen their wallets are also rewarded.

Also, guys, most of us live in a capitalist society where the seller can hock his goods at whatever price demand warrants. Obviously, people are willing to spend $100+ for BE on Ebay, so don't whine. Supply and Demand are, and always have been, fundamental concepts in our economy.

I fully support Limited Editions. They're fun to collect, offer pride of ownership and often provide exclusive material which ordinary "newbie" collectors can't locate elsewhere. Talk to the Alfa Matrix label about how quickly they sell out of their band's 2 CD editions before their standard release starts moving.

[~draxijn]

add me to the list of ltd ed supporters. if it's just about the music then burn it. the band's not gonna mind you burning an OOP release. for people like me who worry about getting their mitts on ltd ed releases...you deal with the price of your obession. they rerelease this and i'll be choked. there's no reason everyone can't hear it...just not everyone can own it.

[~m-linc]

But why as an artist would you limit youre work with a "few" copies???????

Isent the point of publishing it to make people lissen??????

[Electroswank]

Originally posted by draxijn
add me to the list of ltd ed supporters. if it's just about the music then burn it. the band's not gonna mind you burning an OOP release. for people like me who worry about getting their mitts on ltd ed releases...you deal with the price of your obession. they rerelease this and i'll be choked. there's no reason everyone can't hear it...just not everyone can own it.

Also add me to that list!
The second reason i buy the limited release stuff is because its so special. if it were to be reissued it would lose that 'special-ness' (sorry i may have just made up that word) As a fan i want things that not just anyone who is a causal listener will own, call me elitist but that is just my feeling on it.

(My first reason of course would be for the rare tracks, etc.)

I actually know someone who got Burning Empires off ebay for some ridiculous price too - i dont' remember exactly but it may have been like $80-$100. But he was beat because he went to a used record store a week later and found it again for $30.

*don't you hate when that happens? grrr

[~Blackflame]

LTD editions rock......there so industrial.........just sop yah bleeting..

[~interface2x]

Ha! And to think that my friend Becky just happened to have an extra copy laying around that she gave to me in June 2000...

[~PTInc]

heh... On the topic of limited editions... I just got into Stromkern recently... and all I want is that fantastic remix of Perfect Sunrise but that special edition is long gone. I bounced an email to Bart at Wtii and he said he got some left over. It aint that hard to find limited editions... you just gotta look a little bit. Damn... I used to think searching for my quality quality music was a fun thing. My opinion tho...

ANd if selling Burning Empires for 60$ on ebay makes me a crook... well damnit... Im a lousy crook.

[~Niños_Del_Brasi]

I found the burning empires at a record store for $20.00 bucks I didn't even know it was a limited edition and I even think twice when I saw it at the shelve hahaha!! I guess it's just luck

[~SFARAH]

I dont mean to piss anybody off but:

Went to Albuquerque
went into a used Cd store ... pretty scary looking place...
feared for my life...
looked rapidly into the used bins, most were death metal/ rap/classic rock.
Found a solitary copy of burning Empires for $6.00 in perfect condition.
Bought it and left full of joy.

Lesson: no matter how bad it looks...take a look at those used Cd stores you never know what you;re going to find.

[7red7]

Originally posted by SFARAH
Lesson: no matter how bad it looks...take a look at those used Cd stores you never know what you;re going to find.


I agree completely...I'm always hitting up the used cd bins, I can spend a couple hours at least, searching through every used cd on the shelves in stores :)

And by willing to go into those small mom and pop places, I always seem to find something really rare and out of print :)

[~Tekkrokk]

It looks like a few of you found "Burning Empires" in used CD stores. I think thats great! I used to visit them often before buying my stuff online. I guess I'll start shopping there again. Maybe I'll get lucky...

[~Mike Gjennestad]

ok i really have not heard much of the vnv stuff. so tell me if i were to check one thigh of thiesr out, which album or single would you recomeend?

gjennmike

[7red7]

Mike, I'd say start with Empires...It's a solid listen thoroughly, and theres some good dance tracks, heavy tracks, and nice instrumentals as well... :)

[~Mike Gjennestad]

empires, ok empires it is. ill have to get that next time i order from Todd. thans seven. who do they sound like most? apop? covenant? i mena put them in a ballpark to give me a point of reference.

gjennmike

[7red7]

Um...Think Covenant United States Of Mind...Well that may just be me, but I hear a lot of a VNV-esque sound in Helicopter and Tour De Force :)

I think you'll like it...It was the first thing I bought when I began listening to them a couple years back...Then if you like it, and as it grows on you, naturally you'll progress on to the other material...:)

[~harlock]

i love limited editions. if i am a big fan of something, i have it day one. i'm a p00r college student, and i sacrifice parking and f00d money for cds. (pathetic, i know) but i do like reissues to a point. these new APOP reissues aren't all that bad. they are different, so that the ones that have the originals may have something to l00k foward too.

as stated above, do keep your eyes open. my copy of 7 is a promo found at a used cd shop for $6. a friend of a friend found her copy of Burning Empires for $25 at an indie record shop. keep that hope...

[~Harmonizer]

While I understand the people here that crave a re-release of "Burning Empires" I can't say I agree with them. Like someone else said, getting a limited edition usually costs the consumer a little bit more and he or she should therefore be rewarded (albeit in a small way).
I, too, lack a lot of different releases that I would like to see re-issued. Cetu Javu's "Where is Where" for instance, Mysterious Art's "Omen - the Story", Moskwa TV's "Blue Planet". The list goes on and on...I tend to see people bragging about owning those quite a lot... :)
There always seems to be a way of finding them sooner or later anyway, mostly at an affordable price as well, so keep looking for your wants, and eventually you'll find them!

I find limited editions kinda cool, actually, although sometimes a bit damaging to your wallet a fragile psyche. :)

I don't think "Burning Empires" should be released again, simply because I hate the constant milking of re-releases.
Hope for new VNV releases instead and be prepared to dive for the limited editions of those. *grin*

[~mirth]

well i like limited editions too...if i have them!
it is a bit unfair though putting some extra tracks in there...
but limited editions are something special something unique the cd that makes u differ from all the other so called fans....

ive been to a vnv concert last month and i was amazed....
i was amazed by the people that came to see them...a guy next to me was wearing a Blind Guardian t-shirt! only a few actually liked vnv and have waited for them to come here for so long...And you know what? yes! i feel good that i owe some cds that this blind-guardian-guy doesnt!
of course here we have that big "war" among metalheads and goths(goths who are into ebm/industrial or even the classical goth rock) thats why i wouldnt want this guy to have the chance to get a rare vnv cd on his hands...

and about re issues
well one re-issue would be ok i think....but just one...cause then what kind of limited edition would it be?

[~synth19]

I personally dont like it when artists or label's re-issue albums. I wont mention the artist, but this one band pressed 500 CD's "Limited Edition" The album was super rare and then they went on to press another 1,000 or 500 more because of the "demand" That annoyed me as a fan, because the uniqueness went away, and I didnt feel special anymore.. Make it limited edition, or dont call it that if you are going to press more units for the $$$$ :)

[~mirth]

yeap thats true...
but whats the actual cause that bands release extra - rare cd when they are gonna re issue them?
make some fast money?

[~verhaeghen]

I REALLY doubt that Burning Empires will be made available again as VNV Nation have been out of the Dependent camp for a few months now. Funny how people who owned the original issue of "Advance and Follow" didn't seem to mind it being re-issued. I was greatful for it as I did not get a copy the first time around (95) due to a COIL release taking presidence over Ronin's poppy music. V2 of A&F was absolutely superior.

Something else to bear in mind is that for the artists who seem to get name-checked on this site a lot, everything is a limited run due to the labels who can only put out so many copies and still make a profit (or not). It is just unspoken most of the time, but it is a very real fact.

If it's a vitriolic debate about re-issuing you'd like to see, check out the flame war going on at the Litany forum over the re-issues of the From The Vault series. It's trite yet amusing. Elitists never change.

www.litany.net

What will be truly interesting is how nasty it gets in terms of releases and limited runs with VNV now that they have aligned themselves with Kai Lotze (of Candyland fame). Oh I can't wait to see the mayhem commence.

VNV is pretty passe to me as this point, they peaked with Praise The Fallen and it's been pretty much different variations on this album ever since. If you like those sounds being used over and over, then by all means...keep buying the albums and singles.

v.

[~Eyuva]

I remember VNVdemon saying Burning Empires has their best work... I hope it is if I ever get a chance to hear it. For $70 it'd better be their best work. LOL :p

[~Bedsitter]

Originally posted by SFARAH
I dont mean to piss anybody off but:

Went to Albuquerque
went into a used Cd store ... pretty scary looking place...
feared for my life...
looked rapidly into the used bins, most were death metal/ rap/classic rock.
Found a solitary copy of burning Empires for $6.00 in perfect condition.
Bought it and left full of joy.

Lesson: no matter how bad it looks...take a look at those used Cd stores you never know what you;re going to find.

I think I have a natural talent for finding rare music. Even before there was an 'internet,' I would always manage to track it down. I had to special-order some of Secession's 12" singles in the late 80's, and 'The Magician' cost me $50 - a LOT of money for a 12" single at the time, especially for someone in college. And YES, I still have it. I still have them all!

I've become a huge Mesh fan in the last year, so of course I've been collecting their cd's.
A couple months ago I found a brand-new, shrink-wrapped copy of the original 'Fragmente,' which is out of print, at a record store for under $20. I wasn't even looking for it, because I knew it was out of print and I didn't think I'd even find a used copy...certainly not a new one, and certainly not at an affordable price! Of course I bought it, and I love it. :)

As a personal challenge, I'm now officially going on the hunt for 'Burning Empires.' I own some other VNV Nation cd's, so I'm fairly sure I'll like it. Today is Monday; I'll give myself until Friday, and I'll report back with my results.

(This is what happens when I check the EG forums for the first time in months. Maybe I should go back into hiding.)

[~interface2x]

Less than 24 hrs, Bedsitter... how's the search coming?

[~Kessler]

Bah, the crazy youthful hype around "Burning Empires" is exactly that - hype. It's become some sort of scene token that people hunt down just to say they have and can boast about online - obtaining it really has nothing to do with the music found on the disc itself. Most people that I know who have it actually think it's quite subpar and hardly worth the Holy Grail status it gets from kids on forums.

[~Bedsitter]

Originally posted by interface2x
Less than 24 hrs, Bedsitter... how's the search coming?

For now, I've been defeated. :(

I will continue to look for Burning Empires, though. After hearing about it, looking for it, and not being able to find it, I can't wait to hear it!

One of the two BE cd's on Ebay is priced at $130. The other is currently $53 with a bunch of bidders.

Out of curiosity, what is the MOST you'd be willing to pay for it?

*By the way, I did find something cool during my search. Marc Almond's new E.P. "Gone but not Forgotten" comes out on October 20th, but there it was at the store for $8. Then I noticed it's a promotional copy of the E.P. So not only did I get it over a month early, but it has the words "promotional copy" on it. I love that kind of thing! :)

[~interface2x]

I have it and it's pretty good, I guess. If I didn't have it, but knew the material the same way I know it now, I probably wouldn't pay more than $30, myself. Yeah, it's good and everything, but when it comes down to it, it's primarily just remixes anyway.

What's really fun is that a friend of mine "accidentally" bought two copies of it in 2000, so she just GAVE me mine.

[~Hajas]

Will be great if was re-released.

I think that limited editions only made more CDRs and MP3s appears around the world simply because the fans can't find the real CDs, so they don't have another way aside these ones unfortunately. :(

My dream is that ALL cds must be available EVERYTIME in the world, so if I wan to buy some old single buy Cetu Javu or Celebrate The Nun, I could right now do it.

Freddy

[~Tekkrokk]

I agree with you Freddy. No one benefits from keeping music locked up, especially the fans. There should be no reason why this music is kept away, especially with the digital music format.

On the subject of Burning Empires, I'm hoping that since VNV Nation switched labels, perhaps there is a chance that it will be re-issued.

[TDOL]

I agree with most of what everyone has said. But I'm afraid I side with the LtdEd fans. They're added value--especially if they contain multi-media stuff. My guess is that releasing a LtdEd focuses sales within the first week or so of release. This is crucial from a chart placement standpoint. Just a guess...

Take PSB, they release a LtdEd of almost everything these days, but I've never paid more than one or two $ over the standard release prices. That's a great value! And you can still find a lot of that stuff in the stores without being robbed on ebay.

Plus, we can thank labels such as Rhino, Caroline, and One Way, who have done a great deal to rerelease stuff that was previously only available on vinyl. Those CDs are usually cheaper than you would expect.

I would guess as more nostagia sets in, more bands like VNV would look at a rerelease of their older stuff--if there was a demand.

[~Visage-the-toy]

Originally posted by Grey Area
personally, I don't think you're missing much anyway. I thought burning empires was pretty disappointing. most of the remixes hardly differ at all from the originals, and the "standing" single you can get pretty much anywhere. the only songs worth owning the disc for are the vocal version of "saviour" empires and one of the b-side tracks "further".

I totally agree.. I actually found a used copy for $9.99 CDN ($7.50 US) this summer and though it is good, there really isn't much different from the regular Empires... Anyone wants to buy it for $15.00 US? Just joking!