Vocals and vocoding

[~intro]

I'm having problems with vocals and vocoding (bet ya didn't guess that :). Anyway... was hoping some of you could offer some advice:

Vocals. My vox sound very thin. I've tried adding just a little reverb and delay to help em out a bit, but it doesn't seem to do the job. And I'm not getting very far with EQing them either. I'm recording with an AKG C2000B through an ART tube preamp into Cubase SX. If anyone can offer any advice on recording and processing my vocals to make them sound better, it would be very appreciated.

Vocoding. This is more of a preference/tricks sort of question. Has anyone got any particular sounds that are good as carrier signals? Pads, leads, etc? I've been trying to do it with synth pads and strings (from my XP30), and it seems to come out very tinny and hard to hear. I want a vocoded vocal, but not at the expense of understanding what the words are. And I don't want the harshness you hear in most industrial stuff. Looking for something kinda smooth and cool sounding.

Anyway, I'm sure I'm not the only one with problems like these. Anyone got any advice for those of us with vocal woes?

-Mark
www.djintrovert.com

[~pop]

I am not a big fan of people who constantly use vocoders.
If you want your voice to sound thicker.... You have to start doing few vocal exercises.... You can look up that information online....
Also learn to sing in rhythm and layer up to 4tks of your vocals.

[~chriswdc]

Mark,

For vocoder I have had success with my Oberheim. A nice fat Oberheim Lead is big enough to add some punch, yet smooth enough to avoid abrasiveness.

[~matrix]

hi mark,

personally, i think one plugin you need for your vocals is autotune. i've listened to your DM cover and the vocals are off key pretty much throughout the entire song. please keep in mind that i am not trying to bash on you, this is just some constructive criticism and my personal opinion.

as far as vocoders go, i like the microQ vocoder and pads seem to work most of the time as a carrier. of course some vocoder presets need to be tweaked to make them fit. another recommendation is to us less vocoder bands to increase the audibility of your vocal tracks.

hope that helps

[~metaphreaq]

I agree with the post above about stacking tracks, it gives alot more punch to vocals and fills the space that a thin track can leave...also experiment with diffent types of chorusing on the stacked tracks like heavy on one but turn that tracks volume lower then trylayering another on top with very thin chorusing then put your track with no effects...try that and add a bit of reverb to some heavy on one not heavy on another play with that a bit, and see what you come up with..............................

[~intro]

Matrix, you're right, I am off key most of the time. But I won't autotune it. I plan to seek vocal lessons very soon. I've messed with autotune before, and it messes with the audio too much. I don't like how it sounds. But I'm going to get this problem taken care of.

Thx for the advice on the vocoder stuff.

-Mark
www.djintrovert.com

[~Joevirus]

Mark,

It's all in the compression/limiting, and chorusing(whether it's with software, processor, or stacking tracks). I always record my voice through a compressor, then I add the chorus, and reverb/delays.

As for vocoding, I use the Electrix Warp Factory with a lead sound from my Korg Polysix. That's the vocoded voices on Falling and Statik Heaven. I'd use a thick lead patch on your Nord. I use the Waldorf Micro Q on a few trax, and the K Station is best for live vocoding. Come over and I'll hook ya up.

[~arronc]

I dont use vocoding much, but I have actually got really good results with the internal signal generator in Cubase sx's vocoder !

[~intro]

Joe, I'll call you on Monday about it. And thx for the replies guys. =]

-Mark
www.djintrovert.com

[~NullDevice]

Vocal overdubs are your friend. You can use chorus too, but be careful that too much can turn it to mud.

A good soft-knee compressor is a great help too. JoeMeek makes a mic pre that includes a pretty good compressor, for example. Some poeple don't like them since it can cut down on expressiveness in vocals, but in this sort of genre we're not doing torch songs generally, so it's not always that big an issue.

As for effects, be careful with reverb and delay. A little is wonderful, too much and your vocals will be swamped. Unless I'm going for a deep reverb effect, I usually stcik to a small room reverb with a relatively short delay time (1sec or so) and a short (4ms) predelay. Use of more can give you that early 80's reverb sound, but if you have a lot of other stuff going on in your song, it'll be mud.

As for vocoding - even with the "ultimate" carrier signal, if your vocoder doesn't support enough bands, or the right bandwidth, etc, it's going to affect the output. The 16-band vocoder on my MS2000 sounds vastly different from the 128-band "fit to frequency" vocoder in Metasynth. And the 16-band vocoder ont the MS2k sounds differnet from the 16-band on my friend's JP8080.

A simple carrier like a square or saw wave can give you the Daft Punk "Around the World" sound, and a harmonic-rich sound like a big fuzzy analog pad or a string patch or something will give you a more rich vocoded sound, a la "Expo 2000." It's sort of an "experiment and see" kind of thing.

[~dekad]

As far as you r voice pb is concerned,
I would give you the same advice as Pop's :

Replicate your voice ans layer it.
What you can do is even pitch one or two layers, so that they will sound slightly different and give your voice more width. (don't pitch to much !!!;-)

If you want to know more, take a look at those articles,
they've been very helpfull...

I hope it will help...

http://www.recordingwebsite.com/articles/micplacement.html

http://www.intermusic.com/article.asp?ReviewID=1389&ArticleTable=Features&FeatureType=TUT&Channel=RCD

[~NukleoN]

Get a compressor. Seriously..they add tons of intimacy if used correctly and can make your voice 'bigger'. They're pretty much essential. I use a DBX 166XL.

[~Joevirus]

I use the dbx 266xl Compressor/Gate and it really pushes out the vocals crisp and big. I'm using Shure Beta 58's and it comes out nicely. My Korg D8 DHR has some really good on board compressors and limiters as well. I can whisper or scream into the mic and it comes out equally loud and undistorted. I also use a Rocktron Hush pedal (gate) for live applications going into the dbx 266xl. No feedback, lots of volume!

[~andrew [iris]]

sing more from your stomach, not your throat. it'll add a bit of lower frequencies that will help the following stuff work better.

autotune is your friend. get a good one, like antares autotune 3. you can set the parameters so it's more of a subtle "push" towards the note, not a hard clippy "cher-esque" autotune. learn enough about scale theory to set the key properly to your song. if you have a song in C major and you accidentally set the autotuner to Dbmin you're in for a world of weird-sounding notes.

play your melodies on a keyboard while your vocals are playing back. listen for when the vocal notes are off. this will help train your ears to detect off-pitch notes. eventually you'll get good enough where you can actually sing the right note on top of the bad one.

if your voice is thin, use a multiband software compressor (like Waves C4 for example), compress the living hell out of the lower midrange, leave the upper mids fairly lean. a single-band compressor will keep your levels loud but won't give you any more "thickness" if that's what you're looking for

experiment with effects:

add sizzle: run a sidechain through a highpass filter and then through a tube saturation/distortion, mix it back in with the original, it'll help your consonants come out more crispy

reverb: try to keep your reverbs in mono to avoid washing everything out. also try using a delay into a light reverb instead of just using a heavy reverb, you'll get more clarity

doubling: you can use it, but be careful, there's always a danger of getting weird flanger-like sounds as the takes overlap. one good method is to make one track totally mono and the other track totally stereo (using Hyperprism Hyper-Stereo for example). also having drastically different EQ's on the two takes helps as well

- andrew

[~NukleoN]

JoeVirus: You have me beat by 100 points heh.

[~chriswdc]

Originally posted by andrew [iris]
sing more from your stomach, not your throat. it'll add a bit of lower frequencies that will help the following stuff work better.

autotune is your friend. get a good one, like antares autotune 3. you can set the parameters so it's more of a subtle "push" towards the note, not a hard clippy "cher-esque" autotune. learn enough about scale theory to set the key properly to your song. if you have a song in C major and you accidentally set the autotuner to Dbmin you're in for a world of weird-sounding notes.

play your melodies on a keyboard while your vocals are playing back. listen for when the vocal notes are off. this will help train your ears to detect off-pitch notes. eventually you'll get good enough where you can actually sing the right note on top of the bad one.

if your voice is thin, use a multiband software compressor (like Waves C4 for example), compress the living hell out of the lower midrange, leave the upper mids fairly lean. a single-band compressor will keep your levels loud but won't give you any more "thickness" if that's what you're looking for

experiment with effects:

add sizzle: run a sidechain through a highpass filter and then through a tube saturation/distortion, mix it back in with the original, it'll help your consonants come out more crispy

reverb: try to keep your reverbs in mono to avoid washing everything out. also try using a delay into a light reverb instead of just using a heavy reverb, you'll get more clarity

doubling: you can use it, but be careful, there's always a danger of getting weird flanger-like sounds as the takes overlap. one good method is to make one track totally mono and the other track totally stereo (using Hyperprism Hyper-Stereo for example). also having drastically different EQ's on the two takes helps as well

- andrew

Hey, Andrew. Those are some really good suggestions. I picked up a few things myself from that. Thanks a lot.

[~mannikin]

Hi Mark;

The last issue of "Computer Music" I bought, had this great article on vocoding and great techniques to achieve a better sound. Unfortunately, I don't have it at work with me, but it is definitely worth the $15. This is the one with Reason 2 as its headlining article on the cover. I'll look it up when I get home tonite.

later;
J.

[~kenporter]

$15 for the Computer Music mag. That's crazy!!! I subscripted to it, I get them earlier than they come out in the bookstores and they cost like $6 an issue. I think Computer Music is one of the best mags out there so I can only recommend the subscription :-)

Take care
Ken

[~mannikin]

$6 is definitely a great price for that mag! I may look into that subscription as well. I just love going through that magazine cover by cover, and pouring over the Cubase tutorials, and the other great gems that are there every issue. :) The article on vocoding I mentioned was really informative, and their tips were really creative.

J.

Originally posted by kenporter
$15 for the Computer Music mag. That's crazy!!! I subscripted to it, I get them earlier than they come out in the bookstores and they cost like $6 an issue. I think Computer Music is one of the best mags out there so I can only recommend the subscription :-)

Take care
Ken

[~intro]

Thanks for all the info guys. I'd like to get a nicer hardware compressor (right now I've got an Alesis NanoCompressor), but I will definitely try all the stuff you guys have been posting. Hope this helps others out too. Rock.

-Mark
www.djintrovert.com

[~Joevirus]

Originally posted by NukleoN
JoeVirus: You have me beat by 100 points heh.

Ahh, NukleoN, I've heard your tunes, now feast your ears on these:

http://www.mp3.com.au/solemnassembly
http://www.mp3.com.au/quadrezkill


hehe

[~NullDevice]

I may be getting heretical here, but these days I'm avoiding autotune like the plague. Even with the subtle changes, it seems to "color" the signal slightly. And flatten it a bit too much, pitchwise.

Plus, just for training sake, I find I'm a much better singer when I have to concentrate on making the vocals stay in tune.

I was listening to our last album and there's an autotune artifact in a track that I didn't catch early on - and that just grates on me like a kazoo solo.

I've recorded two new tracks already without the benefit of autotune, and while I find myself having to do more retakes to fix things, the end product is a lot more solid-sounding and doesn't have that vaguley brittle sound that having a stack of perfectly tuned unchanging vocals seems to impart. My favorite two tracks on "Sublimation" (note: subtle plug for the album) were also recorded without autotuning and they have the best vocals.
Maybe it's just me, but "I can fix it with autotune" leads to overall laziness.

I may bust it out again if I want the Cher/PSB-Release effect, though...although that's *so* 2001.

Anyway...

Compressors are wonderful - but be careful, a little too much and your listeners will think you're spitting in their ears. :) Watch your ratios.

[~darklink]

So here is a question, how do you get that thick chorus sound on vocals ala Interface, Stromkern, Neurotic Fish? I would like to get away from layering vocals but right now that is the only way I can get a good thick chorus...

[~intro]

I really like the way the vocals sound on the new Neuroticfish album. Great stuff.

-Mark
www.djintrovert.com

[~NullDevice]

Well, I know that Stromkern just does overdubs. I think he often adds a wee bit of soft-clipping distortion to the whole process as well. I know he used to, I don't know if he still does.

Also, Ned's voice just kinda sounds like that. :)

[~stillbjorn]

I like using a very tight small room reverb effect - lots of early reflections and short pre-delay....i just tweek it until it stops sounding like i'm in a tiled bathroom, and more like a chorus that doesn't sweep.

[~pop]

overdub!!! overdub!!! overdub!!!
:)
key is learn to sing in rhythm. once you got that going, sing the lead with perfect pitch and backup vocals can be sloppy. Good mix, eq, compression by engineer will take care of it......

[~darklink]

I realize that is one way of doing it... but the effect I am thinking of... I do not think it is really based on overdubbing...