State of the Music

[~admin]

I think we have enough "VIP's" to start a topic, although others will keep trickling in . . .

What do you think the state of the scene is? Is it growing, fading? Is there any real potential for exposing the music to the masses to create a real, albeit small, market where labels and artists can actually survive by creating high quality music and touring? What are some of your ideas on how to proliferate this scene. How can we all work together to maybe push things out of the gloom?

This is a broad topic, but that is why we are trying to get people together that can reflect on this both from a historical and a contemporary outlook. I think everyone in this Forum has a vested interest, both personal and financial that relies on the "State of this Scene" so I think this is a good way to start our virtual round-table discussion.

[seraphim]

Personally, I don't see this scene (I'm going to assume that you mean the Synthpop scene) growing nor fading, I see it as treading water more or less. I say "more or less" because in a sense it is growing, just not fast enough to retain anyone's interest longer than a few years. Those "anyone's" I mean are people who aren't as obsessed about music as some of us are, unfortunately not all synthpop fans are fanatical about their music. If they were, we wouldn't have a problem and I think that it is largely due to the on-line community that this scene has been able to tread water as long as it has. And one of the only reasons why we'll continue to see the scene grow in small spurts. As I have said before, the way I see it is like this: You have five synthpop fans, they really like it but eventually get bored because there is little to no progression in the music so three of them leave while four new people discover this "new" music. So now you have six fans. Small progress but progress still. Not to forget that bands that fail to progress get buried in obscurity. As example look at Celebrate the Nun. They had moderate success but it wasn't until a few of the members broke off and went with the times to form Scooter. Scooter fills stadiums while Celebrate the None, who hasn't kept with the times from what I heard, is still pretty much obscure. My point is that I don't think that it is a relatively good idea to keep playing up that 80's sound.

Is there any real potential for exposing this music to the masses? Yes, the potential is there. We all see it otherwise we all wouldn't be here in this VIP forum, right? The musical formula is right. The music itself is accessible and user-friendly, much easier to market than say industrial or power-noise. Many people I have played this style of music to have admitted to liking it. That's people from clubs to co-workers. The problem is that this music isn't widely available and accessible to the general public, they wont go out of their way to purchase something. If they can't cruise into Tower records (or Virgin or whatever your favorite store is) and pick something up, they'll just pick up something else and be just as happy. Perhaps if the key Synthpop labels worked more with chain stores or on-line stores (cdnow, amazon), synthpop would become more accessible and in the long run generate more interest which in turn would make the labels more money. Is this realistic? I don't know. I'm not a label. The only reason why I could see that this isn't realistic is because the key labels are small labels run by average people. However, it just takes a bit of work to get your product into chain stores (usually as consignment at first), we did it with the SynthCon DVD. There may be no short term payoff but a probably long term one to this.

Also, I think that the labels need to act more like labels and less like on-line stores. In that, I mean that they need to help and push the bands on their label to tour and do shows more often. You need to increase the visibility of the artists. You sell more products at shows I would imagine than anywhere else. Not to mention that people bring friends to shows, people wander in off the streets just for something to do and bang! Another potential fan, another potential sale. These shows don't just need to happen locally but abroad as well. How many more fans did say Provision or Freezepop acquire when they played SynthCon last month? Quite a few I'd imagine.

What I think would help this scene is if more people (promoters, labels, bands) pulled together to make things happen. This scene is far too small to one person to carry the burden and break even, that's why multi band shows abroad so often fail. All the key players must take equal stakes until the scene is large enough to support that not having to be.

Just some thoughts and answers. Some may be idealistic but we have to start somewhere.

[~Vladimir Valette]

Right now, I tend to be pessimistic about the "scene". Reason being, I think the one thing that everyone is lacking is perspective. I know I will get flamed but it's food for thought.... Think about it, the majority of the bands and people involved in the scene are old enough to have seen the early to mid years of DM, Erasure and such. That is "the" band for those people and it is evident in the music they write. My thing is that where is the new breed? Echo Image is it, it seems. I'm 24 and that seems to be pretty young in the scene.
Like punk, hardcore and whatever denomination of rock you'd like to venture into, there are young kids who are adamantly arguing about who's the best, idolizing certain bands, talking about them, getting psyched to see shows, and feeling a legitimate sense of belongng in these bands' careers. That is not happening here. For me, synthpop is the style people would call the music we do but I will be quick to say that it's not that solely not because it's pigeonholing. It seems sometimes that many of the members on the network refuse to acknowledge anything else exists outside of synthpop...er.... DM, VNV, Apop... How can there be a scene when we are only talking about bands who are past their prime or moving past peoples' ideas of what they should be. In NYC, there are a lot of bands around from Carol Masters, to Brand New Idol, Soviet, New Clear Sky, Postive Complex, The Mystic Underground:). I'm sure there are loads of bands in Nashville, Seattle, San Diego, what have you, what about them. MP3.com, Ampcast are there for a reason!
There needs to be more of a grassroots awareness from within. Right now, there is no synthpop scene. What is going on right now is being mistaken as a "scene" when it really isn't. We don't even have one magazine that covers synthpop in depth. Side-Line does to a degree but let's face it, it's not the main issue there. Where is there a scene if you can't have kids show up to shows. Bands and promoters need to take it upon themselves and check their egos and forget their wallets for once. All ages shows where bands play at a location where kids can hang out, meet the members and pick up tips on how to get better. That's how a scene evolves, you can't preach to those who have already been converted by Depeche, Erasure or the PSB. You can't relive the past, let them fade away. What about Echo Image, Ladytron, the Faint, Bis, Vitesse, etc... Let's get interviews with them instead of some 80's- early 90's band who is past their prime and already made their mark. If we continue down this path, synthpop will go the way of swing in 1998... oh wait, swing actually had its moment in the sun then.... we're still waiting for the resurgence.....



Bring it on!

[~GamGam]

Problem seems to be, no one is doing anything new – just rehashing what was once popular in the 80’s. Echo Image is all right, but certainly not innovative. A band needs to step up, embrace the music, and add something new by truly making it their own. In other words, we need some artists.

Only a few bands have been able to manage this, such as VNV, Evil’s Toy and Apop. Listen to their first albums. They are practically unmanageable. Looking back, who would have guessed what they would eventually develop into? They have crafted a sound based on strong personal visions. Something I do not see coming from the majority of bands.

So why all this synthpop stuff? Why not use your talents to craft something new? You have the gift, use it to generate change, not just maintain the status quo of rehashing music from another time.

Then the labels will have something genuine to use and promote.

[~KissTheStar]

The scene is fractured in disarray in my opinion. No one label is leading the charge. I am sure this has to do with the fact that there is very little money to market bands properly or a genuine fear that they are going to lose a great deal of money. Take a look at the fiasco that was Synthcon 2002. There are too many people on the business end of the scene who seem to have very little business sense or at least no marketing background. Any solid business venture needs to start out with some sort of capital or at least the ability go out and obtain investors that share your vision. Until more people with these talents and abilities step into the scene (on the business end) this will not change. With several years in marketing myself, I shake my head at the way many bands, promoters and labels put themselves out there ... or should I say do not put themselves out there. As stated before the labels in this genre are more like on-line record stores. That is their business model and probably the way they can survive. So be it, but it will not push the genre out of the "gloom".

Even though this is music and an art form there is still a business game that needs to be played. The independant artists need to realize that and be willing to step into it. Be an aggressive marketer and campaigner for your cause with both mainstream and "scene" fans, labels and promoters. If you can't or don't know how to do it ... find someone who does. With enough of us making noise, someone is bound to notice. We (the scene) just better have the product to back it up when the time comes or it will pass us by.

~Craig

[seraphim]

Agreed, the Synthpop scene does seem to be overly dominated by older bands and/or people old enough to have "seen the early to mid years of DM, Erasure...". While I don't necessarily find this a bad thing, these artists obviously worked hard to get where there are, I do see them over-shadowing some really great up and comers out there. We not only need a spot light on center stage but on the second stage as well and it's all our jobs to help supply that spot light right now. There is a whole new breed out there, just waiting to be discovered. Not just Echo Image. From what I see, one of the problems is how the genres get broken down. It's all electronic music at some point but then it gets chiseled away at, into the multitudes of sub-genres out there and in that process a lot of good bands fall by the wayside (just because they're not easy to categorize). The general public will most likely always lump what hear in that "80s" or "New Wave" category because more often than naught, that's what we offer them. You have to admit that a good majority of the bands out there have that blatant 80's sound to them. Not until bands move past that will they get more notoriety and not just liked for nostalgia's sake by people in their mid to late 30s.

There are tons upon tons of great bands on MP3.com and AMPCast, I used to have a web page dedicated to all the ones that I found. Pointing out what I believe to be the strongest tracks, pictures and all that but I took it down one day in a fit of frustration with the "scene". The point? The point is that there are most definitely enough bands out there willing and able to take over for the bands who paved the way into the mainstream (DM, Yaz, Pet Shop Boys...). There are more than enough bands to start up that "grassroots" movement that Vladimir was talking about but more people have to be into it for it to be affective. SynthCon utilized MP3.com as a resource to it's fullest. Out of the 15 bands that played the first year, a third of them were bands either Jenz or I found via MP3.com and half the bands from this years event came from there as well. Unfortunately, we misjudged what we though people wanted. A good majority of the scene doesn't want "new", they want "established" and "underground mainstream". At least that majority doesn't seem to want a concert event that showcases "new", not one they have to travel to at any rate. I still feel that it was a good idea and has the potential to eventually work to the benefit of all involved but for it to be, everyone needs to pull together equally. So this grassroots movement MUST start with smaller shows in ones own town, then slowly branching out to surrounding states. But the key is playing abroad, because constantly playing locally will get you little more than local fame.

As for ego's being checked at the door, I for one haven't ran into all that many people with any sort of ego problems. A couple, sure but I wont name names but for the most part, everyone I have worked with has been more than accommodating and willing to do what it takes. Or at the very least do what they *can* do. I am glad that ego's don't tend to be a problem, if it were, we'd all be going nowhere fast. So I don't think this is a problem. Of course I can only say this about the non-commercially successful underground mainstream bands, promoters and labels. Above that, it's business as usual but that's to be expected.

About lack of perspective and experience, well, experience is of course gained by getting out there and doing something. Which your average person is unwilling to do. Experience is also gained by age, hence why you have all us 30 something folk out here trying to lead the way. They key is to listen to what all the new people are saying as well and combine that with tried and true methods. Now perspective, that's a trickier thing. At least in my eyes. In my experience, not that many people are looking past a short 5 year plan. Or are again looking to the past to see what has been done and what they can do "sort of" like it for safety's sake. Or just looking at the scene as far as "synthpop" is involved. I know when we were planning our event, we were looking at aspects outside of "synthpop" as well to help guide us. We had (and still do have) a lot of great idea but we somehow allowed ourselves to fall into that all to deadly "pigeonhole" trap.

I won't even go into the business side of the "scene" because I couldn't say it any better than Craig already has. It'll just be enough for me to say that I agree with him 100%. I will add that in order to get these "investors", we need to package our "scene" better. I learned this the hard way from trying to find financial backers for both of the SynthCon events.

[~Midihead]

I personally think that there a some main points that we need to consider. What DOES it take to go "mainstream"? When I say "mainstream" I mean regular air play, albums in vast amounts of retail stores, concerts where thousands attend, etc.

MONEY is the driving force behind this. Who's got it? The major labels do, and that's why they've monopolized. Isn't there some rich bastad out there who'd like to kick start the e-pop culture to it's highest potential?

First, people have got to know who you are. I think that it's great news that some of the labels are stepping up to organize some shows that they can have a stake in. This will help. But, who's going to attend? The die hard underground followers. And I hate to break it, but the numbers aren't astronomical.

Radio play is key also. People gotta know who you are. Will Monolithic ever get commercial radio play? Probably not, because Monolithic and Monolithic's label don't have the cash to pay a promotional company to bribe the radio stations.

MTV, VH1 are the same story. Retail record chains aren't going to stock your stuff if they don't know who you are or if the fans aren't telling them they want your music.

I hate to be pessimistic, but I'll call myself a realist since that fits better. We're underground until someone with A TRAINLOAD of cash wants to invest in an electronic movement of epic proportions. That's going to be tough in the first place if there aren't any innovative artists in the scene.

So, all you 80's sound alike retro freaks...get creative for the sake of the scene. You're holding us back. Perhapse if all of us sounded innovative, someone would come running after us with a fistfull of dollars. Ditto what Seraphim and Brett said.

[~andrew [iris]]

there is a revival in 80's sounding electronica! and it's happening right now. have you guys read any music mags lately?

the faint (signed to dreamworks!)
ladytron
felix the housecat
adult
fischerspooner
etc etc

how exactly are these bands not synthpop? i think maybe the main difference between them and some of the bands in this scene is that they use the 80's sounds to extremely ironic effect, it's crappiness for the sake of crappiness, post-modernism to an extreme. combine that with the fact that many of them write very good songs, and have an image (imagine people in the 80's trying to dress like the 60's style mod look) that is very popular right now, and you have a recipe for success.

another interesting issue is that way too many of the bands in our scene are extremely club oriented, but don't have a "mainstream" enough sound to get massive club play. apop and vnv sounds great in goth/electro clubs, but if you try putting some of those tracks in the middle of a paul oakenfold or sasha or d:fuse set, you're gonna notice a huge stylistic and textural difference from the rest of the tracks.

i guess what i'm getting down to is: why exactly should the synthpop scene flourish over the indie rock scene, the mod scene, the mainstream club scene, emo, and all of the other underground genres that are popular right now? is the songwriting better? is our production better? do we have lots of interesting image-based bands? what are your thoughts?

- andrew

[~KissTheStar]

It is interesting that Andrew brings up the issue of image. I was talking to someone the other day about that very issue. In most things in life "image" gets you noticed and will kick open a few doors for you. In order for you to stay however, you have to have the goods to back it up. What is the image of "synthpop"? Well based on what I have seen from many bands at shows, it is jeans and a t-shirt. I am not sure that will help get you noticed. Everyone else seems to don a black flack jacket or something similar and end up with a quasi-goth look (which brings in a certain audience and I am sure is calculated).

Usually most types of "genres" break out of regional scene with its own spin, flavor, and image ... such as the Bat Cave movement (London), the CBGB's sound (NYC), Glam Metal (LA), The Austin TX scene and of course Grunge (Seattle). The locations in the US that I see that possibly have that potential now ... NYC and Houston (Texas in general). I see Chicago with the potential as well . They seem to be the area's where bands are banding together to try and make an impact. Anyone else notice that The Mystic Underground, Platform One and Brand New Idol (NYC) play a hell of a lot of shows together? Just food for thought and it would sure be nice if I could add Southern California to this list. I know I am game.

~Craig

[~Vladimir Valette]

People have to face facts that synthpop is not some sort of special genre that deserves to seperate from the rest of the music world. Generally lot of times even in the forums, I see this common thread where techno, indie rock and, oh no... electroclash are not regarded as worthwhile but yet at the same time will never ever utter a bad word against the hallowed bands they like. Nothing wrong with that but remember those bands are not them only ones out there. I've always said that one thing lacking in music in general is that there are no more ***holes left. No more "rock stars", people who knew where they were in the music echelon and were proud and happy to be there. The grunge era killed all that but it needs to come back, do we have that in the synthpop scene? Right now everything is too vanilla, too plain. We need some flava, people! What's wrong having the gumption to demand to be heard, have confidence and what not. I don't see that sometimes from people I come across in the "scene". For example, I personally think Fischerspooner is absolutely horrible. I realize that I am in the minority but meanwhile I love The Faint, Miss Kittin, and Bis. They are all synthpop like it or not! They have image and they're getting away with it. My question is: Who is going to step up to the plate? I assure you one thing, I'm ready and I've got my diva stick pointed towards the top. I'm done.

Bring it.

[~andrew [iris]]

diva stick! f*ck yeah

FLAVA <-- i can't agree with you more

we need less cookie-cutter bands, less middle-aged suburban white guys singing depeche mode covers. need more substance, more style, more depth to songwriting, more art!

- dr. drew

[~Midihead]

And don't forget the beatz! Nothing like a good break IMHO.

[~Vladimir Valette]

now that we have for the most part that:

- the scene sux
- less middle aged white guys playing dm covers
- more style
- the diva stick is a popular item on eBay

what do we do now?


we need print mags, find a way to get your friend who's in IGiveAF*** University to write reviews on your show that you should be playing at your neighborhood school, VWF show, what have you. Take a look at the model presented by the punk/hardcore/emo(god, i hate the term) scenes and see how they are able to foster and nurture their communities.

The labels themselves... if we want online stores, we'll go amazon, cdnow or sharper image.com.. this is now what you are for!

You guys have taken the first step to try and make a change. Big ups to Todd, Dave, David Lin @Synthphony, and the others who are losing money trying to put synthpop on the map.
You are all applauded, but the need is still there for more. Buy ads in the Alternative Press, get into the pockets of the indie mags like Magnet, Big Takeover, Shout, Lollipop and such. They review, pimp anything you give them once they see Ninthwave putting out ads. The Synthcon thing didn't work but does that mean, well I guess we're done with that! NOOOOOOO Seraphim, I know you can put together smaller scale shows with some bands you know who more than willing to take part! Midihead! Lord of da phat beat, you must know dj's in the techno scene out there in need of funky breaks and not the new Oakenfold(which I'm not too high on, another story). Andrew, Joel and my people in TX, you guys are kicking ass, you're showing the rest of the country how it has to be done. I know Platform One, Brand New Idol, NCS are aorund here somewhere, we need to drag them in here to represent NYC.

What I'm saying is that, we need to be optmistic. I'm sure someone read the article a year or so ago about synthpop's comeback in the Revolver magazine before they went metal. They have an interview with Todd about the reason for synthpop's lovefest. That gave me optimsism, I dunno about you.

The artists! Whoever your influences are, who cares but please , please don't feel compelled to say Erasure was it or DM. Have the guts to say you're not interested in those bands, you like rock and roll, you like Brahms, it's okay! For me, there is only one band and that is the almighty Smiths anfd then there is Radiohead, Bowie in my influences but DM, Erasure.... Be free, there is so much music around to explore and fall in love with, why fall into the VNV trap where their idea of innovation is having Ronan decide to not sing on every track and thus making you want to reach for Praise The Fallen swearing "Hey, I have heard this song before".


Ok enough, now Bring it!

[~Dan1boy]

Wow, this is an amazing discussion. Everyone has brought up some fantastic, and quite valid, points here.

I belong to the group of people who stated that they are a "realist" when it come to the promotion/elevation of the scene. After a number of years of hope, hope, hoping that it would breakthrough...and a number of disappoints along the way, I think I actually straddle amongst those with the pessimistic view. Actually, my final retort probably takes place during my interview on the Synthcon '01 DVD. There's simply not enough fans and not enough people interested in this music to bring it to the next level, at least not right now. It's sad, people, but it's true. I have loved this scene with all my heart for many, many years, and there HAVE been significant strides with regards to bands who've experienced a higher lever of exposure than anyone since the early 90's, but the state of (U.S.) synthpop is on shaky ground.

I honestly don't believe it has much to do with image. I also don't believe that the songwriting-lyrical depth has much to do with it either. I believe it has to do with a couple of things. Of course, the first, as stated above, is the 'All Mighty Dinero.' Yep, money makes this world go around, and without it to invest in a.) PRODUCTION b.) PROMOTION/MARKETING c.) TOURING .... it can go nowhere. God bless Todd Durrant, but he's just one guy. An ordinary family guy living in Utah running a home-based business. What he's accomplished in the 6 years I've known (and been following)him is astoundng. But astounding doesn't grant airplay spins, it doesn't produce full-page ads in Rolling Stone and it doesn't get video rotation on TRL.

So, here's the part where I duck for cover -- the other reason. I'll start by giving an example: Been listening to the new Perfidious Words album a lot. And thinking. Here's a German duo who sounds as close to Mode than any other electronic act in history. Seriously. And as you know, this scene is bombarded with whiners who complain that every band retains too much of the DM influence. Still with me? Ok. Well, while listening to this album, I'm noticing some other interesting aspects to the album as a whole. Here's the list: 1.) Crisp, clear, flawless production 2.) Intense, emotion-filled, achingly smooth vocals 3.) Complex, well-timed, yet unobtrusive programming 4.) Smart lyrics, each with a catchy chorus 5.) Attractive, well-thought out packaging, art and booklet 6.) Songs which beg for repeat listens. Heh, enough adjectives? Well, those are the ingriedients I personally look for in a record (and for what I feel adds real intrinsic value for my hard-earned money.) But it's a rarity in this scene. Especially the U.S. scene. The last two U.S. bands who've evoked similar sentiments is, of course, Iris and the late Agnes Poetry. Here are two acts who incorporate their 80's influences into a *modern* electronic infrasctructure of sound and vision. They conduct and market themselves as professionals, both in public and in the studio. The difference is noticeable.

I'm not going to name bands or labels, for that matter, who I feel are more of a hinderence to this scene than a help, but it's the overall mentality that synthpop HAS to be advertised a certain way or else the massess won't accept it. I think that instead of flooding the market with countless, listen-to-'em-once singles and compilations which feature the same self-glorifying acts over and over again, we need to focus more on quality and substance.

I'll reiterate my clip from the DVD...European bands (Mesh, De/Vision, Apop etc.) have bigger followings because (most of the time,) as a whole, they promise and deliver and produce the points I've outlined. Many of them chart on the DAC and tour the huge festival circuits in Germany, Belgium etc. because they are, as Triple H would say "that damn good." Yes, a lot of them still have day jobs and work in home studios. And, yes, some have quit their day jobs and do it full time, but the common thread is they don't compromise quality, market themselves well, are persistent and aren't afraid to take chances.

Thanks for hearing me out. A little long-winded, I know. Let's use this forum to our advantage and try to help this scene into the spotlight it deserves.

-- Dan

[~Midihead]

Originally posted by Vladimir Valette
Midihead! Lord of da phat beat, you must know dj's in the techno scene out there in need of funky breaks and not the new Oakenfold(which I'm not too high on, another story).

Hey Vladimir...Yea, Oaky is not my fav but I do like some of his stuff. I'm currently enjoying the latest DeepSky disk. That puppy's slammin'!

Dude, you called me "Lord of da phat beat"! That rawks. It's a total first and I thank you.

As far as knowing people here locally, well that's my fault. No, I don't know enough people locally and that needs to change. I've been a bit stalemate as I've put my family in top priority, which isn't a bad thing...but I need some balance. I feel that I'm getting more and more out of touch with the scene because I'm not playing any shows. Without playing shows, you don't meet people, without meeting people, you don't help move the scene forward. We all work together...or at least we should be doing so. I know that I can certainly do better. I also know that it hasn't helped for me to be SO outspoken that I ruffle people's feathers to the point of being detrimental (Red Flag). I did apologize for that (and I was being sincere, Mark).

I'll try to get some shows lined up so I can get back out there and network...oh, and promote my music.

[~andrew [iris]]

I honestly don't believe it has much to do with image. I also don't believe that the songwriting-lyrical depth has much to do with it either

but...

6.) Songs which beg for repeat listens

isn't this songwriting?

4.) Smart lyrics, each with a catchy chorus

... lyrical depth?

5.) Attractive, well-thought out packaging, art and booklet

... image?

anyhow you made a lot of good points, especially that we need to change how this music is marketed. i'd personally be all for getting rid of the "synthpop" word from our vocabulary. it's got all sorts of bad negative connotations and isn't really descriptive enough to describe well any of the music it's used to categorize.

and what's with this scene and compilations? (especially tribute albums) ... it's almost like there's more compilations than actual album releases...

i've been sitting here working on tracks for the new iris record and all the points in this thread have been bouncing around in my brain, especially in regards to breaking the mold out into the mainstream, and what the best path to take is... unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a simple answer

- andrew

[~Midihead]

Hey Andrew,

My suggestion...whilst you bounce things around in your brain is this: Firstly, you're a good songwriter and I don't feel you have much to worry about.

Second, do what feels right...what comes out of you naturally. There's no need to write music that other people want you to, especially those who don't, won't and cannot experience the feelings you feel when you write. Be real, be honest. What do you have to prove?

Experiment with new ideas, new styles, new sounds. It never hurts to try something new or blend different styles into your music. That is how you get dubbed the term "innovative". You'll do just fine so long as you follow your heart and write from your soul.

I personally feel that those who mimic other artists are only doing so because they feel that it's safe to do what has succeeded in the past. In the end, everyone just says "they sound like (fill in the blank). Wouldn't it be cool if people said, "hey, these guys sound like Iris!"?

[~andrew [iris]]

well, reagan is the songwriter, so he's in charge of the writing vision. i'm in charge of the sonic vision, and there will be lots and lots of different styles in this new disc, hints of IDM, glitch-pop, indie rock, light frostings of EBM, and all sorts of others. my tastes are definitely a bit more "out there" than matt's were. in terms of the synthpop community this will be an unconventional record, but maybe in the mainstream community it will be just right...

anyways this isn't an iris thread, so enough about that. getting inspired by other artists is wonderful. trying to copy production techniques can often be enlightening. but - literal mimicking of other artists is lame, IMHO, especially if you're trying to springboard off of their success.

- andrew

[~KissTheStar]

Originally posted by andrew [iris]


i'd personally be all for getting rid of the "synthpop" word from our vocabulary. it's got all sorts of bad negative connotations and isn't really descriptive enough to describe well any of the music it's used to categorize.

- andrew


I second this thought. Be done with it already. Anytime I mention the term Synthpop to someone in mainstream music they get a look on their face like they just bit into a sour lemon. It's all electronic music anyway in my opinion.


~Craig

[~KissTheStar]

Oh and while we are at it ... let's lose the jeans and t-shirts on stage as well.

~Craig

[~meg]

hi guys!

well, i would like to touch on the "image" idea for a second, if you don't mind.

those of you who think that image has nothing to do with the success of a band or scene... i'm sorry, but i can't agree with that.

if that were the case, you wouldn't have millions of young girls running around trying to emulate brittany spears and gwen steffani, right?

when i was in jr. high and high school, i was obssessed with voice of the beehive. i dressed like them, i sang their songs, i learned everything i could about them... i wanted to BE them... (bee?) :)

anyway.... it was their image that i lived and loved. their defiant, wear every color at the same time, and love yourself attitude that i could identify with and sing along to.

so.... lets say i'm a teenager now and into synpop music.... hmmm...

if i'm a boy... my role modles in these bands wear jeans and a t-shirt. ok... not much of an image...

if i'm a girl... i don't have many to look up to.... and the ones there pretty much wear jeans and a t-shirt as well.

so, i look like everyone else at my school that doesn't have a passion for anything except playing barbies and playstation 2...

i hope i'm getting my point across... image is just as important as any sort of cd packaging or music production. we need visuals!

this is what makes freezepop so interesting. their look completely emulates their music. same with faith assembly.

i would love to hear more thoughts about this....

meg :)

[Synthpopalooza]

Cosmicity recently wrote an article about image on synthpop.net which echoes those same sentiments ... if, according to Sprite, "Image is nothing", why don't they market it in a plain white can that says "Sprite" in boring black letters. No one would buy it then, even if it does make the melon ball bounce. ;)

One should cultivate an image which goes along with one's music. People have a visual identity which goes along with your music and it helps! I think a lot of good examples of this include people like NukleoN and Freezepop ... or the entire roster of Plastiq Musiq who dress and look like they're straight out of 1979 (the era their music attempts to emulate). Try to establish your own identity and your own style.

Going back to the sorry state of the scene: I am at a disadvantage here. I live in Tennessee. Country music central. Besides myself, we have only Occupant, Otherness, and Entropy64 in the synthpop scene, and I can guarantee you probably have never heard of them before, right? Hell, I even come from the same rinky dink small town that Kenny Chesney lives in.

Lack of quality material in the scene? Maybe, but the quality material is there. At least I think so. The problem is your average joe blow does not know it exists.

I think that if the music is to catch on, it will be through individual efforts on our part. For example, here's what I have been doing on my off days:

* I have gotten in with Ninthwave Records, a label which really has some good music on it that I like alot. I have been extensively promoting this label here in Knoxville, and have even gotten Ninthwave product into the local indie record shops. Through my efforts, I did manage to sell one CD (the Evolution compilation). I have also been spreading flyers about the record shops promoting Ninthwave, Plastiq Musiq, Plan B and other labels. Ninthwave sent me some sampler CD's which I am about to add to my arsenal as well. Watch out world. :)

* I have found a gothic club here in Knoxville. http://www.knoxvillegothic.com ... Goths are our allies. You wouldn't think that they would be synthpop friendly, but they are! The club plays alot of industrial, and 80's synth, but until I brought by a CD I burned myself of favorites of mine, they knew nothing of modern synthpop. Now that has changed. Apparently Monolithic, Wave in Head, and Red Flag made the greatest impressions.

* Sometimes it's just as simple as trying the music out on your friends and coworkers. One coworker of mine (a teen who usually listens to stuff like Mudvayne and etc., but who appreciates goth stuff) now likes Red Flag, thanks to me providing him with a complimentary copy of the Skulls remix compo I appeared on. Sometimes its as simple as posting on Electrogarden about a really cool band you like which no one has heard of (I do that alot). My fiancee Beverly is not generally into the synthpop like I am, but I have gotten positive responses from her on certain artists from the light side of the spectrum, such as Soviet or Monolithic.

* Paltalk. http://www.paltalk.com ... An online audio chatroom client. Absolutely incredible. This is something I do alot. Get in there, go into the music-karaoke-play rooms, and bring your synthpop favorites. A lot of the folks in these rooms are very open to hearing new stuff, and I've won over a LOT of new fans this way. Most of these are family oriented rooms, but even so, I have gotten good responses from Ganymede, Freezepop, NukleoN, Monolithic, Electrosquad, Gary Flanagan, NASA, Joy Electric (especially considering alot of these people are Christian) ... a common response I get is "Who sang that???" ... not only that but you make alot of friends that way too. Also tailor your music to the room you are in. A room devoted to love songs would do well for you if you play them "Wake" by Leiahdorus for example ... this I know from experience. In the techno / rave rooms you can try them on a bit of the darker stuff or the EBM. Xero-G, Raindancer, and Monolithic went over well in these rooms.

* My online radio stream. I have poured alot of time and energy into it and you know what? It does draw new fans into the scene. God bless Live 365, best thing to ever happen to our music scene. I play stuff the radio won't play, and people listen to it!

* My SynthetiK music project. I have started composing synthpop music, but I am allowing vocalists from around the scene to sing and write lyrics for it. We also do a promotional tradeoff, I allow them to release it on their CD, and I also include it on mine, and we cross-promote. This helps further the scene, and essentially doubles the reach that your music has. I think Monolithic/Midihead did something similar at one point, allowing other artists to contribute material for possible inclusion on his CD (albeit it changed to a remix contest later on down the track).


Also, If you find something you like, buy it! E-mail the artist. It makes a difference. I know one artist (Kevin Park, aka Pop Star Who Kills) who was about to quit the scene, when I found his music online and downloaded it, and e-mailed him with encouragement. A few months later, he's uploaded almost a whole album's worth of material to his site! He's become quite prolific, and sometimes a bit of encouragement is all it takes.


I guess you could say this scene is a passion for me. I love this music and I want to make as many people aware of it as possible. Of course it will take money for this scene to really catch on, but until someone pours alot of cash into our scene, its up to us to spread the word through individual actions (like what I am doing above).

[~side-line]

I wouldn't chop up the syles that much either... when we had Ladytron for an interview with Side-Line, they didn't even know the term synthpop that well... It will benefit from a greater mass if you don't put into a small niche of the market.

[~Vladimir Valette]

I just want to throw this out there and see if it sticks. Is it only me or is there a feeling like with the rest of the industry, the term "artist development" is now an old, forgotten phrase in the music vernacular? In this scene, i see it in that, bands don't often get a chance to gorow because so much emphasis is placed on its equipment that is being used. Analogue, digital, digi-analogue. It's not good when something as rudimentary as that shines over actual songwriting.
*To Andrew (iris), I feel you pain about figuring where you want to go, we've got the same problem and this is just our first album! We've got a bunch of styles so far down but you never know when it feels right especially in the purpose of reaching the most amount of listeners possible.
I don't know about everyone else here but I do believe image has a definite impact. If you don't have image at least one that you constantly present to the people watching live or seeing you on television, you will be cast off as boring. Look at Duran Duran, the epitome of image......or their predecessors, Roxy Music. Now Bryan Ferry had some major GQ going on as did Mr. Bowie in whatever form he chose. The music is all-encompassing, of course but let's not be short-sighted and believe that looking the part does not help!

You know what to do....

[~Dan1boy]

Interesting thoughts about "image" guys. But I think some of you are still being short-sighted.

Let me ask you something. Has anyone seen the live Mesh video or any live performance by them? Here's a band...as boring in the "image" category as you can possibly imagine (Lead vocalist Mark wears a wool pull-over cap bearing a popular athletic wear logo and baggy pants as his trademark live and in photoshoots!) but yet, one of the most successful electronic-based acts in the world today. Don't insult my intelligence by comparing a band like Mesh with Freezepop or artists from the Plastic Musiq label. It's apples and oranges, Bob.


-- Dan

[~Vladimir Valette]

Hey Dan, I have the live video you speak of and I've seen them live twice. Mesh are awesome! Their image isn't boring at all, they (Mark) have the image of "don't care about me because of what I what I wear" lackadaisical look. Almost like Badly Drawn Boy or to a more contrived extent, the Strokes. Image can encompass anything. It doesn't mean dressing up like Kiss or Slipknot, or looking like Bootsy Collins or even Martin Gore. It's something you possess that shows who you are and why I should care. Image, once again, is not a bad thing. In fact, I do believe it is necessary. Another good example, the Pet Shop Boys. Great image!

[~KissTheStar]

Originally posted by Dan1boy
Interesting thoughts about "image" guys. But I think some of you are still being short-sighted.


Well image isn't everything that is for sure but it is essential in any solid marketing plan. But as stated before ... image will get you noticed but you have to have the goods to back it up.


[i]
Don't insult my intelligence by comparing a band like Mesh with Freezepop or artists from the Plastic Musiq label.

[/b]

Okay .... taking this thought one step further. Is Mesh the yardstick we all want to use? Isn't this falling into the same trap and thinking inside the box again? There is no doubt that Mesh is at the top of what this genre has to offer, but again isn't that the point? I am not sure using a band that hasn't sold 100,000 units of a single pressing as a measuring stick is what people here are shooting for. Don't get me wrong ... I am not dissing Mesh but they are not truely commercially successful.

Everything starts with a clear vision and daring to think big. It has served me well in the business world, but maybe I am a dreamer ....

By the way, how many times have you heard No Doubt's "Hella Good" on the radio today? Something to think about.

~Craig

[seraphim]

Well that and they were in the right time at the right place and knew the key people, that accounts for a lot as well. Also, the bands you mentioned, Depeche Mode, U2, REM, etc, were all around when the music industry was different. It was quite a different time.

Joel, you must not be listening to the radio or watching TV because that No Doubt song is everywhere. I think I even heard it in the background to a news snippet one evening. Not that I mind all that much because I like No Doubt and they worked hard to get where there are. They've come a long way from playing that small club I saw them at, where only maybe 75 people were there to see them to where they are now.

I honestly don't think there is any "formula" to gaining fame, mainstream popularity, what have you. Near as I can tell, all you can do is go out there and do what you love and do it well. Don't compromise.

Maybe asking a bunch of people involved in the "underground music scene" isn't the best way though. We need to track down someone at Warner or something and ask them. *lol* Speaking of which, I wonder if any of the bands solicit their music to major labels. Either in the US or Europe. I mean, wouldn't now be the time to hit them? What with Mesh being signed to a major....isn't De/Vision on a major label as well in Europe?

[~Vladimir Valette]

Read the review of the Evolution compilation by Danny King in the reviews section. You can't win when you have reviewers with an obvious bias towards holding onto the early 80's tight to his heart making negative comments about bands who don't write music to cater to that ideal. Am I wrong?

[~meg]

this brings to light another interesing topic....

when i did OING (back in the day...) one of the things that my readers loved about it was that i spoke my mind and wasn't afraid to print a bad review. i didn't want to tell my readers to go buy something that was crap. you know?

however, there were a TON of people that didn't agree with me on this who were of the opinion that what i was doing was "hindering the scene..." i could never understand that way of thinking. i've gotten enough bad reviews in my day (i know, its hard to believe... hahahah!) to know when they are legit and i should learn from it, and when its just crap and the people have no clue what they are talking about. nonetheless... a review is just that, and opinion. just like all these posts are opinions. some more valid than others :)

this reminds me... i was hanging with jason of leiahdorus at synthcon when someone pointed out to him that there was a review of his cd in side-line. i guess it wasn't too favorable of a review... and it was really interesting to see his response to it. he was just sooo excited that he got a review in there! it was so cool! he didn't seem to care what the person thought of his cd... he was just so stoked that it was mentioned.

i'd love to hear your thoughts on this, everybody....

meg :)

[~Vladimir Valette]

You are absolutely right. A review is merely an opinion. It's just that I read reviews and it seems that in this day and age rarely do you come upon a clear, comprehensive review that actually deals with why a song, album, what have you is good or bad. The reviewer will focus on the band/artist's personal life, the sound it reminds the reviewer of and is always subjective to a fault. I can deal with bad reviews but reading reviews like that where the bias is so blatant against anything past 1983, you scratch your head sometimes. Anyone?

[~KissTheStar]

Well I guess there is no mistaking which of us are outspoken in here so far.

How could possibly only pointing out the positives in anything be good? A legitimate negative review helps as much as anything. How can anything improve with out constructive feedback ... both positive and negative. Anyone who would say a negative review is hindering the scene is tremendously short sighted. That doesn't mean that all negative reviews are constructive, but we can all tell when someones bias gets in the way of rational thought. It is very apparent.

~Craig

[~Vladimir Valette]

Craig, your words ring true. My concern is when the reviewer before they have gotten into the music itself already begins to flash their preference. Chances are just by the fact your sound may not be what they are into could lead to a unfair review where an honest critic would simply pass it off to simply who knows the sound better and would be equipped to give a thoughful and constructive review, no?

Don't get me wrong, reviews are necessary. How else do we learn about the stuff we listen to? Word of mouth is a powerful medium with which to find new music.

[~Wych]

good lord... just go and make me THINK at a message board.. thank you all very much! I have a feeling I'm going to like it here.

I haven't been IN the synthpop 'scene' for long. Sure I've been an Alphaville fan for 14 years or so, and I buy cd's from A Different Drum... but I was a goth for so long in my younger years. Then again, that's how I discovered Anything Box. Living In Oblivion used to play everywhere. But I digress. I went to SynthCon last month expecting grand things. I had a good time because I can have a good time just about anywhere but... really if there had been no vodka I would have been disappointed. I'm beginning to think that anything with the title "SynthPop" is doomed... mostly because of the image of the scene as a whole. For the MOST part it doesn't seem new or fresh or exciting. It's not drawing in young people that are buying most cd's these days but instead is just holding onto the older fans WHO, btw, are getting older... and older.

Don't take me wrong... I'm no spring chicken. But I see the value in appealing to the younger consumers. As far as solutions go, that's the hard part, isn't it? Maybe helping out some of the younger musicians that aren't Erasure and DM wanna-bes. Giving the younger people a chance to show what they are thinking up. I'm not saying throw out older and established artists.. I'm just saying share the small, dim spotlite and maybe karma will be good to us for it.

PS.. some large chain stores WILL carry your cd'son consignment.

[Synthpopalooza]

Try Sam Goody's ...

I have 10 CD's of the USA Tribute to America on sale there now. They are very consignment friendly (at least the store here in Knoxville is!)

[~Midihead]

Here's an interesting article that I found:
http://www.aimeemanninprint.com/2001/bg100701.htm

I know that it's a few months old...but I wasn't aware that there was a rather large lawsuit brought against the majors so I thought that I'd share.

[Synthpopalooza]

Interesting article. I know that the singer from Garbage was also suing her label over similar things?

Any word on how that trial is going?

[~pacific_mile]

Hi all :-) Steven Bakos here. I find this topic very HOT! It's good to see that many of you think as I have for a LONG time. Getting back to labels though, here is MHO on this subject.

Seraphim made a comment that "synthpop" labels should function as labels and not online stores".

Then the topic of marketing and $$ (which make the world go round) came into play and rightfully so considering there is NO money filtering here in America for this scene.

Here is what I have researched and gathered over the past few years. I think it would be very smart for a label to start by signing bands that ARE the "in" thing in the mainstream market. Ie. Rap, Hip-hop, Alternative, Trance/House etc etc. This would allow an Indie label to build a broad reputation/marketing strategy as well as start securing decent financial portfolio. After esablishment has begun coupled with intelligent promotion, that label could start incorporating "synthpop" bands on it's staple of artists. I think labels in this scene have become too short sided and small in there thinking and often times has been what has set the mood for it's listeners in this genre.

A perfect example of how this works is a Christian Label "N*Soul Records" granted this is a christian electronic label, it is still MUCH bigger than any American Synthpop label has been for a LONG time. Scott Blackwell(Owner) started the label with a few House/Rave acts in the early Nineties. As that decade wore on, Scott realized the importance of promoting to MASS markets and then started to incorporate Rap,Hip-hop, and Alternative bands to his rooster while still retaining and STILL adding to his electronic catagories. Leaving it to what has now become one of the most successful (not to mention HUGE rooster of artists) I've seen an American Indie label do in YEARS.

I even read that Mark from RF has signed Scribe Machine to Plan B. I think this is a SMART move for them simply due to the fact that Scribe Machine is more of a Trance project, is it not? At least they were when We (Ken Porter and myself:formerly INTACT) did some remixing for them a couple of years ago. Adding a variety to a labels rooster I think is a smart way to approach it instead of trying to make it ALL one genre that struggles to keep it's head above water.

Just my 2cents

Cheers
Streven Bakos
www.mp3.com/pacific_mile

[~Jenz]

Not to repeat what has been said before, but I just wanted to add in my own words how i feel about all this.

I have been listening to this music longer than I have been in the "scene" This scene is so small i did not even know there was one until about three years ago.

With hope in my heart and good intentions I tried to do something that I thought this scene wanted and something it surely needed.

Fact of the matter is, there are not really many "fans" of this music, other than the ones that are promoters, djs, artists, label owners and so forth. Where are the regular folks who just like the music and such. I think another problem is that in most areas we are all working backward. We are trying to promote shows to people who have no clue who these bands are because they don't even get club play locally.

Ways I feel that this scene may thrive. Stop labeling it. Marketing would have to be the KEY problem. If every major city had one promoter that opened one club marketed for main stream attendees that just happened to play music that we call synthpop, then there would be a scene to speak of. Also, money is an issue for many of the labels, artists and so forth. I don't know how to change this, other than sponsors for clubs and concerts, smaller labels banding together to make bigger labels, and hiring marketing firms to promote the hell out of something we are all sure will sell to the general public. I mean it is not like we are trying to sell heavy metal to the mainstream, but hell someone managed to do that. THIS IS POP MUSIC.

I agree with the image comments in a way, but the fact of the matter is that if people like your music or your a great performer they don't care what you are wearing. Moby is a funny looking little man that wears nothing but jeans and tees - and from what i have read him makes most of his music at his studio at home.

Press - there definitely needs to be more press about this scene. Good or bad, press is press. Also, all events need to start trying to get the cities behind them, special interest groups and so on. I recall, back in the day, when i was trying to host local punk artists i often made the shows benefits and got the use of the college auditorium for free. I know that there is a lot of time and effort into putting together a show, but sometimes non-profit pays off in the long run. More show should be free, more in store appearances should be made and more time needs to be put in on the artist's parts. I know that since this is a small genre and many of the artists have full time jobs and families they can't or won't dedicate the time to promotion. Frankly, this is a HUGE problem. If you can't do the lifestyle, don't bother, just self-release ONE CD and go hide. Labels should be more focused on bands that will sell records, get club play and help fork over the money to set-up tours. A small tour would even be nice. Not taking away from singing bands that are good but don't have major selling power, every label has some of those. I think more money needs to be spent on the ones that do have what it takes to move this music forward.

OK i think i said too much - i am babbling now.

doot doot

[~pacific_mile]

Well said Jenz :-) I agree 100%!!


Steven

[~Vladimir Valette]

Hey I agree with Jenz. We need more rock stars in the "scene". Too many people are comfortable with being hobby musicians hoping for a hits on mp3.com or Ampcast.com. Enough of that, where are the ¤¤¤¤¤s?! Where are the ones who want to be on the cover of Rolling Stone? I'm game! Whether people like it or not, Fischerspooner has got the electroclash champion of the world title based on the fact thet've got a look and the pretension to go along with it. THAT IS WHAT IS NEEDED! Not everyone has to be a nice guy!

Also, marketing is a big problem! More press IS needed. Hit the kids! I went to see American Hi Fi last night with my sister(...don't ask!!!) and her friends and gave them Mystic Underground stickers to pass out and BAM, gone! Is that hard? I think not.


Also, does anyone buy the Billboard Touring Guide or the Musician's Atlas? Inside there are listings for resources for every musician's needs. Question is why when there is a listing for record labels are none of the synthpop labels on there? What is that about? Cause & Effect's label, Liquefaction, is on there! Why isn't ADD, Ninthwave...? What's up, it doesn't cost a lot... so whassup?


Who's got my back?!!!!

[Synthpopalooza]

You know, I found an indie magazine, Cool and Strange Music ... The address is http://www.coolandstrange.com. They're geared more towards stuff that has a tinge of the 60's to it, but they may well be synth friendly. They accept CD's reviewed, provided it's not rap music, or alternative rock stuff. I know for a fact a lot of the Ninthwave stuff would go, and most surely Electrosquad's stuff would be a perfect fit here.

What caught my attention to this magazine is that on the front cover is a likeness of Wendy Carlos, one of the original innovators of electronic music (well known for her "Switched on Bach" series).

[seraphim]

Originally posted by djstargazerX

something i'm unsure about and maybe could be the issue.. is what do they synthpop labels want? does ADD want the same thing that the fans want? and what do the fans want?

Does anyone know if the labels (A Different Drum, Ninethwave, Plastiq, etc) are even a part of this VIP forum? If they aren't, then all this discussion is pretty moot and if they are, then they are being awfully quiet about their opinions. I agree with Joel, it would be nice to know what these labels want for their artists as well as for themselves. Are they perfectly content being the small fishes in a big pond, selling and promoting to their little nitch of the music world? If they are (which is fine considering they're ordinary people with jobs and lives), then all our talk of wanting to push this music into a mainstream forum is a wasted effort. Personally, I don't see this music taking off until we see a "label" (or band for that matter) that really wants to be a big fish and constantly strives towards that. It's no secret that I agree with Jenz about "If you can't do the lifestyle, don't bother". Just release your music when you see fit to do so, play a few shows but don't get bent out of shape when you don't get recognition and don't become a star of radio. I have always wondered what was the benefits for signing with ADD, Ninethwave or Plastiq Music are (other than getting your product in their online stores). Do they get promotional help (i.e. Help organizing and paying for shows/tours/in stores), help with costs for recording music (i.e. Studio time, producers)? Obviously, there are enough people involved in this scene who want to help to push this thing forward but maybe we could do that a bit better if we fully understood what it is that needed to be done and where the help is truly needed. I have said it before but the promoters can't promote this scene themselves, not without the labels giving them 100% of the help they need, the scene is too small, too spread out and the bands too unknown (for the most part). Sure, bands like And One, Covenant, Assemblage 23 will draw a crowd but they have already achieved at least a good amount of underground commercial success.

As for what the fans want...that's the age old question. For the most part, I think they just want their music to be readily available and to be able to see their favorite bands perform from time to time. If you give them that, they seem happy enough. Most of them aren't driven by this need to see the music they like to be mainstream (we are because mainstream means recognition and that eventually leads to money). We can be fans of the music but we can't allow ourselves to think like fans. We have a product to sell. ;)

Like Jenz, I honestly don't know how to fix the money issue for the short term (I only have ideas for a possible long term fix). I do agree that if the labels want the same thing as the true fans (us), then banding together to form one or two "major" label(s) would be a good idea. Hell, the labels themselves have said that they are working more closely together. So this only seems like the next logical and smart step. In my opinion anyway. One "major" label will be a force to be reckoned with and easier to market to a mainstream audience than half a dozen smaller labels (in the beginning anyway).

In much the same way as we shouldn't have splintered labels (right now), we shouldn't have so many names for the music. Something we have all agreed upon that we need to get away from. I won't insult everyone's intelligence by pretending that I know all there is to know about electronic music but what I do know is that it is very divided. I read an interesting little editorial a few days back that could also apply to what we are going through now, it went something like this:

"While this division of music can be a good thing as it helps define each specific genre, it can also be a bad thing in the way that it spreads us too thin. Take a look at other genre's like R&B, Pop, Rock, Country, Rap and Alternative don't have as many titles as club music and so they seem "bigger". You can find diversity in each one of these genres -- for example, Hank Williams and the Dixie Chicks are completely different types of Country but they don't have ridiculous sub-categories so the listeners feel like they're a part of a special group. There isn't "Hill-billy Country" or "Mason-Dixon Country" or "Snakeskin Boot Country". In the early 80's, electronic keyboards and drum machines were introduced to the world and with them came a new way of making music, "electronically". House music was born. By the early 90's, House music had evolved into other genre's including Trance, Techno, Breakbeat, Heardcore and a few others I'm neglecting to mention. If you went into a record shop in 1991, all of these genre's were grouped together on the same wall and everyone was buying the different styles without distinction. You could hear on any given night Black Box (house), Pragha Khan (Techno), 2 Bad Mice (Breakbeat), and FSOL's "Papau New Guinea" (Trance) in most DJ sets. Doc Martin wasn't just House then. Carl Cox wasn't just Techno. Even "king" Paul Oakenfol wasn't just Trance. Everyone just played great records. No categories. No dividing lines. So here we are today. There are more DJs than ever and more categories than ever. Why do so many DJs choose a category and play only that particular style? I think it's because they're afraid. Afraid that if they play a song with a vocal they wont be cool. Afraid if they play a record we've all heard before, they might not be "original". Afraid that if they play multiple styles they might not get booked. Do we need all these titles? Are all the people on the dance floor so shallow that they can only handle one style or another? I hope not."

You might not agree 100% with the above or even find a few errors in it but never the less, I found it interesting and fitting.

[seraphim]

Originally posted by djstargazerX
i think we have bands who want to be big.. they are just the european bands like Apop and all them who are doing it.


Definitely! There are quite a few bands that have what it takes to become big and they're on their way to becoming so. And yes, most of them are European. In my opinion, you know why this is? Because they aren't rehashing the same old sounds over and over again and if they are, they are doing a far better job of masking it. These bands also get out there and tour. They tour their asses off and not just a town or two away but all over. Exposure is a key to fixing the problem.


and some bands who want to be big.. really arent good enough to pull it off. i definently can say that i have cds in the other room that i LOVE but i know will never make it.


There are many talented bands that wont make it because of their sound not being commercially accessible. That is the price that they pay for making the sort of music they make. But we're not discussing how to get those artists on the radio, because quite frankly, that'll never happen. That's not to say that there isn't a market or place for those bands because there is, it's just not what we're discussing right now. Also there also many bands who think they can be something big, have the attitudes for it but just not the talent. I have run across many bands like this but of course they don't see it, nor do their fans and if you bring it to their attention you quickly become labeled "not so nice". Personally I can handle that but I'm sure you know what I mean. People just can't handle an honest opinion for the most part.


but i still think the issue is with the labels not doing the full-circle job.. but how could they.. they are all one-man operations..

Agreed. For what it is and how the "scene" is and has evolved, the labels (and bands, fans...) have done a brilliant job. My hat goes off to them all. It's just we have obviously reached this plateau and still have a climb ahead of us. Instead of looking out at the view, we should start climbing again.

[~Midihead]

There was a time when stardom was a top priority on my agenda. That was years ago when we were playing shows like mad and had Steve Masters marketing our product. We had many, many nibbles but no bites. I look back and realize where we went wrong and come up the conclusion that it was a combination of things and just bad timing. 10 years ago, the type of music we were pumping out wasn't widely accepted. After all, the 80's had just passed and there weren't any labels taking on synth pop acts. In fact, many bands that had contracts were getting dumped at the time for the Grunge thing.

So, here I am 10 years later. If I was really determined, I could drop my day job and divorce my family. That is, if I were an idiot. This is definitely a career that cannot involve children. So, if my albums get ANY popularity it always comes as a surprise. However, I'm NOT surprised that I'm not getting air play, club play, or ANY kind of major exposure whatsoever. It's something that I know cannot be a career because of the life decisions that I've made. Something that HAS been making me money is working with a few publishers that ALREADY have their hands in the cookie jar. So, now I make music for TV and commercials...hopefully a motion picture and even writing for other artists. This is where I CAN make music my day job. As for releasing albums...strictly a hobby for me and something that keeps me sane.

[seraphim]

Originally posted by djstargazerX
and who should lead the way Chris?

has a leader emerged when the music needed it?


Who shall lead the way? A very good question, Joel and a question I unfortunately have no answer to. Though I do think that we shouldn't be looking towards one person to lead the way, as that is a very heavy burden. If anything is going to happen, I think it's going to be a combined effort or at least it should be. All I can say at this point though is that it wont be me that will "lead the way" because honestly, I don't have enough knowledge needed in the areas to accomplish something like that. Not to mention I'm too opinionated and stubborn to lead anything or anyone anywhere.


i think the closest we have come is you, Jenz, and Andi doing Synthcon.. you put some effort and energy into the American scene.


I thank you for the kind words, as I am sure Jenz and Andi do as well. We did try. We made mistakes along the way but we have always said it was a learning process. I think both Jenz and I walked away from the SynthCon endeavor with much life experience and we both have a clearer vision of how to do it* better next time. We however didn't do anything that anyone else couldn't have done. The only difference between us and everyone else is that we went out and did it. I just hope that someone else picks up where we left off. The stage is set and the tools are there and while both Jenz and I have stepped back for a short time, we are always of course just an e-mail away for help.


but i think the time has come for certain labels to put up or become stale. (i just like being antagonistic because i want certain labels to be everything they COULD be, not everything they are right now)


Being antagonistic is a good thing as long as it's tempered with the knowledge of knowing when to stop and realize that maybe these labels are all they WANT to be. Same thing with the bands.


i think Dan Koven should speak up and give us his opinion.

Yeah, where is Mr. Koven? I am sure he would have tons to say on these subjects.



We do plan on doing something again. Just when the tme is right and we can accomplish what we want to in the fullest.

[~Dan1boy]

I'm here...just lurking about..reading and digesting some of the posts on this topic. Joel, Seraphim and the rest of you have brought up some great points. The question is, how is this scene going to thrive and expand into something more than it is with the kind of leadership we have currently?

Do you want the honest answer or the pre-fabricated fairy tale version? In my opinion, either one may be a bit hard to swallow. First off, I have tremendous adoration for this music and have watched it over the years evolve from an almost lethargic state to the nominal popularity it enjoys today. I agree with Seraphim that if the labels (ADD, Ninthwave etc.) aren't participating or reading this discussion -- us as semi-influential people within the genre are spinning our wheels. There's no sense in conversing if no action will take place, right?

I truly believe that if more labels put *quality* over *quantity*, the scene would be much better off. Nurture those bands who have the potential, sell 1000+ records and who are willing to be pro-active in marketing themselves as a viable entity. Too many electronic labels seem to feel that the more music and junk releases which flood the market will help induce awareness. I don't feel it does. They ARE mostly one-man shows, operating from spare bedrooms across America and God-Bless 'em, some work their behinds off with noble intentions.

The fairy tale is that there are thousands of North American modern synthpop fans buying every record which the independent labels release. They willingly support each and every artist emphatically, including singles and compilation appearances without question. They also attend every local gig in which that artist appears and purchase their t-shirts, bumper stickers and other merchandise.

The reality is that there are perhaps a few hundred interested people who like the music, buy an occasional release from a well-hyped act and will attend a gig if it doesn't conflict with another pressing errand.

Synthcon was an ambitious endeavor. A huge undertaking. S, J and A gave it their best shot, worked their assess off and made a splash, albeit a minor one. I really really, sincerely, really hope that SGTW is a resounding success. I hope the bands are treated well, people show up and buy tickets/CD's and no major occurences happen. Lazarus has does nothing but impress me with his diligence, positive attitude, apparent hard work and constant progress updates. This guy, if he pulls it off, is THE man! But if it doesn't, I won't be shocked. I'm already numb.

Calling the shots as I see them. You guys who know me know I pull no punches. So, at least we are facing the facts and understand what has to be done now. That's progress. That's working toward a unified goal. Now, let's implement our collective ideas into something tangible.

-- Dan

[seraphim]

See. I knew Mr. Koven would have a thing or two to say on these subjects and he is of course correct on many of his points (if not all). All I can do is pretty much agree with what he said.

Originally posted by Dan1boy

I truly believe that if more labels put *quality* over *quantity*, the scene would be much better off.


I firmly believe that labels should put quality over quantity, always have. It would be a far easier thing to start to do this now than if the scene ever exploded and try and do it then. By then, they're already set in their ways and doing business as usual. Another small label goes the way of a major, I've seen this happen a few times over the years. All to many labels are signing bands that I quite frankly don't think are ready to be signed. I think I have a good ear but I can't see why some of them are signed. Sure, watch them. See how their sound progresses but don't sign them right off the bat just because they picked up a keyboard and bought a computer and they're your friends. As Dan said, "Nurture the bands that have potential" but first let them have some life experience to grow into that potential.


Synthcon was an ambitious endeavor. A huge undertaking. S, J and A gave it their best shot, worked their assess off and made a splash, albeit a minor one

Well it was my intention with SynthCon that it would make a splash and those ripples would go out and perhaps make others do things as well. Showing them that yes, while it is hard work and an undertaking...it really isn't that hard and can be done.

[~KissTheStar]

Originally posted by seraphim
All to many labels are signing bands that I quite frankly don't think are ready to be signed. I think I have a good ear but I can't see why some of them are signed. Sure, watch them. See how their sound progresses but don't sign them right off the bat just because they picked up a keyboard and bought a computer and they're your friends.


Well I suppose one needs to truly define signed. I mean are these bands getting advances on royalties? Promotional money? Tour support? Production dollars? I doubt it ... I don't think any of the labels in discussion here really have that kind of money to throw around. And these labels are making money selling CD's they are pressing. I don't know their financial's but I am assuming that putting out product is the way they are making a living. They can turn the couple of hundred loyal purchasers onto more material so they can survive and make a buck (it is their right). It is a valid marketing strategy but does not insure long term gains. In the investment game it is called churning your book.

~Craig

[seraphim]

Well I am losely using the term "label" here as we all know my feelings about how they stand now. You see bands constantly saying "We got signed to ______" when in all actuality they should be saying things like "We just got added to ______ on line catalogue". Again, it just comes back to why this scene wont go very much further. Because it lacks a real label or the vehicle to pull it into the mainstream, or even just ouside the mainstream.

Yes, it is their right to market the artists music and turn a buck. Hell, I'd do it if I had thought of it early enough. I have lots of comments on this but I will refreign from voicing them because I don't have a full enough grasp over the deal between the labels and bands.

[~KissTheStar]

I am sure the bands get perc's and have a beneficial arrangement with the labels ... it is a good way to market your music to the few hundred buyers that are out there and to add legitimacy to your project. It is the best avenue that is being presented to many bands right now. However, there are bands that press their own CD's and sell them directly from their web-sites who do quite well also (relatively within the genre that is).

~Craig

[~Jenz]

just a few quick (yeah right we all know me) comments

Joel - you asked "who will lead the way?" - funny seraphim and i were talking the other day about how to move this scene forward. I believe that if there were an "army" of people working together with some sort of goal and direction then it would succeed. The music industry is a fortress .. we just have to get over those walls .. well who will lead the way .. and if someone steps up to do that, the bigger question is .. who will follow.

If I stepped up and said .. i'll lead .. i know what we need to do .. everyone listen to me .. would you care? would you listen? more importantly would anyone else. The labels? the bands? while we are all friends it seems that there is division even in this scene. I see division between labels and with new labels starting everyday it is getting worse. An army of leading is never going to get anywhere. I learned very quickly while doing synthcon that I everyone has an opinion, and that if we are all working together we all get to have a say. Well it should not have been that way. I should have stood up and said "This is what I want, this is what I am doing. " But, sadly i tried that and then was feeling denied some of the support I started with. I left because it was nothing close to what i wanted anymore so i left it to be what it was.
Unfornately, this scene will stay the way it is in many cities because there are too many people trying to do the same thing in a slightly different way. We won't work together .. that is the american way...... and we are failing because of it.

Dan - i agree with what you said ..

seraphim - always bringing up good points .. but honey we both know it is pointless now. It is never going anywhere.

Midihead - i understand your commitment to your family, to your job and that music has become a hobby in most respects. This is the case with many synth pop bands, it is a sad state indeed. To say that I think that it is ok that bands are now working on music as a hobby instead of a job would be false. I do understand the reasons behind it, i just dont think it helps anything.

In addition, I think that in many cases labels are simply hobbies, getting music they love to some other people that love it. Great. They need to put their money, their lives, and their hearts where their bands are. One-man labels are not going to make a difference.

Seraphim and I were talking (and have been for some time) about putting together a solid plan for a new label. Working on the start-up over the next couple of years, me going to school and learning more on marketing and business in gerenal. Honestly, I dont know if i care to bother anymore. I really dont know what do to to change anything, and I dont know if I feel like trying anymore.

[~Midihead]

I'm not sure whether or not it's common knowledge that A Different Drum has in the past given non-recoupable advances for the soul purpose of buying gear. None the less, I'll bring it up because it has definitely benefited me. I was able to buy an Access Virus KB to help update my sounds, since the Roland XP-30 wasn't cutting it anymore. Not only that, but ADD gives the artist all publishing rights, not to mention that all artists keep ownership of the master. As an ADD artist, I don't pay for much out of pocket. The costs involved with producing the CD are also taken care of. The only thing that I've got to worry about is the recording costs, but when you do it all yourself it's just time.

I know that A Different Drum doesn't have the greatest exposure, but there are some things that take a lot of money to do with a label. From what I understand, a lot of labels that release music within this scene are folding because they can't pay the bills. I know that you've got to spend a lot of money to make a lot of money in most any business, but I know that Todd spends A LOT of money and doesn't make much in return. It's a tough business. One that cannot be understood unless your in those shoes.

[~Jenz]

midihead: my comments about labels - i know todd has helped his bands in ways beyond the ability for most small labels - i was not putting todd down. He was a great help in the synthcon event and i consider him to be a friend - regardless - there is always more that can be done

joel: reading through your post I see a lot of what has already been stated here by either myself, seraphim, steven, dan, or you.

What we need is to realize that we must stop talking about things that will not change. A major label needs to pay attention. MTV needs to pay attention. Without those kinds of things we will always be in an underground scene. The only way to change these things is by money and the power of influence and to make people listen. I think that if the smaller labels did get together did mass marketing for all releases, mass events that toured the country with both their bands, european bands AND maybe one major headliner with commercial success, and banded together to push one or two bands with commerical potential. Then we might see a difference from the point we are at now -

In addition, we could stop trying to push this scene and just try to incorporate it into the scene that already exists - electronic music is electronic music. it is all just the buttons you push. Synthpop artists also need to start shopping their stuff to trance and house djs that spin around the world. they spin to huge crowds and people DO pay attention to what they are playing. I know i do - also more stuff sent to electronic music mags. not just sideline - BPM, and so forth - all write reviews.

ok i am done for today - nappy time

[test]

Well, the bouncer just let me in to the VIP Lounge. Thanks Admin ;)

This is the first thread I've been reading. I started way back at the beginning and I've read most of the posts through page 3. I am encouraged to see the commentary and opinions offered.

Let me preface my comments by saying that they are my opinion and not necessarily the shared opinion of Brand New Idol. Tim, Kris and I agree most of the time, but I do not want anyone to assume I am speaking on the band’s behalf. These are solely my own thoughts. Tim has asked to join the VIP Lounge as well and when/if he is allowed in I’m sure you will see some more interesting views from him.

End of disclaimer…

Synthpop – a few years ago this seemed to be the perfect term to describe the music I liked and wanted to be involved in creating and performing. To me, the term means pop music that is delivered primarily (but not necessarily exclusively) through synths. It seems that the general public is either unaware of the genre, considers it retro-influenced by the 80s, or worse still, an ill-fated, misguided attempt to rehash/recreate the 80s. I find these comparisons to be short-sighted in many cases, but in some cases bears some weight.

Is Brand New Idol influenced by Depeche Mode, Erasure, Pet Shop Boys, Nitzer Ebb, Front 242, Camouflage, Yaz, Kraftwerk and on and on? Of course we are. Do we want to be them? NO!!! We want to be Brand New Idol. We hope that people listen to our songs and enjoy what they have to offer. I think that all of our songs stand apart from their instrumentation. They have lyrics you can understand, intricately layered melodies, they are well produced (considering we do it ourselves in a home studio that does not have all of the latest and greatest software/hardware) and I’ve been told that we have good vocals too ;)

I would prefer to have Brand New Idol’s music classified as Electronic music, period. I am getting tired of the constantly changing genre classifications and subdivisions that make it harder and harder for mainstream fans to find out about our music. When I say “our music” I mean all electronic music, not just Brand New Idol. There are so many sub-genres now that it is absolutely ridiculous. There are so many people out there that would like this music, but are probably too ignorant or intimidated to wade through all of the genre names to try to find something that they may like.

We are constantly trying to figure out what we have to do to expand the public’s awareness of what we’re doing. We are trying to play shows in higher profile venues in New York, while also trying to schedule shows in places such as Philadelphia, DC, Boston, Toronto, California, etc. I personally send out quite a few CDs to E-zines and any DJs that express even a hint of interest. To date, I have heard directly from DJs that have played us everywhere from Stockholm to Toronto to California to Russia and back.

Mp3.com and ampcast.com and forums are nice, but we all need to get off the web and on the street and in print in papers and magazines covering the scene. Large scale festivals have proven very costly and we’ve had one that was a disaster and one that was a success in terms of the fans' enjoyment of the event, but at the price of a very large financial loss for the promoter. Obviously, I’m talking about SynthCon 2002 and Synthpop Goes The World. By the way, I tried to get Brand New Idol on the bill for both of these events (it seems that we have a respectable following in California and Toronto). We were rejected for SynthCon and Lazarus politely replied that the spots were all filled (I e-mailed him when there were TBA slots listed thinking that they were available, but the artists had already been booked and were awaiting final confirmation before posting the lineup).

I have applied for a showcase for the upcoming CMJ festival in NYC this October/November. I think that this will get us some much needed exposure, and hopefully, in front of the right fans and industry people. Maybe it won’t. I do know that I have nothing to lose by trying to get us performing in front of as many people as possible. I think that the only two venues I do not want to play are biker bars and bowling alleys…

I also try to e-mail everyone who praises us, who puts us on their mp3.com station, live365 station, links to us on their website, etc. I regularly search Google for “Brand New Idol” and then visit the pages where we are mentioned. My brother has a live journal and he sent me a list of seven people who list Brand New Idol as an interest on their live journal. I then e-mail all of these people and thank them for linking to us and for sharing us with people that visit their sites. I tell them to sign up for our mailing list and to try to catch us at our next show if they can. I also encourage them to introduce themselves if they make it to the show. I always receive enthusiastic replies and have stayed in touch with several people I’ve met this way. People love hearing from artists they like – especially when they aren’t expecting it. How cool would it be to get an e-mail from (insert favorite here) saying – “Thanks for listening to us and spreading the word. We sincerely appreciate it. If you come to our next show, be sure to say hello.” I think that it is to our advantage to be approachable and available to our fans.

I am somewhat disenchanted with some of the popular music that’s getting press right now. I’m not really crazy about Fisher Spooner or The Faint. For those who enjoy them, please continue to enjoy them. I just wonder if they are they going to be around this time next year. I’m not so sure. However, if them getting press is going to help bring attention to us, I’m all for it. I am also dead tired of the boom-tis, boom-tis, boom-tis mindless crap I hear in clubs, but that is what a lot of people seem to like. I could very easily crank out a dozen of those songs over the weekend, but they would be hollow and empty for me and true electronic fans who cherish the days when synthpop referred to melodic, synth-centric pop music with clever lyrics and staying power, would find them truly disappointing songs.

It’s nice to know that there are some people that are interested in things other than Martin Gore’s clothes. I have a theory that the majority of the silly posts we’ve been seeing lately are coming from bored teens with nothing else to talk about. It’s nice to see a section for the serious-minded fans. It seems that the late 20s early 30s group know what’s going on.

Hopefully, the rest of the music producing, music selling, and music buying population will catch up with us…

[~Vladimir Valette]

Well said, Frank!


I know some people out there like Jenz, Seraphim and the like are tired, financially strapped and ready to say, "Screw it, who needs these people?" I can't blame you but.... you know what? Don't do that, if nothing else we need you guys more than ever now!

For this to work, there needs to be a rethinking of the whole mechanism on which the scene has been founded on. Synthcon was not a failure. It took a major setback but you know what? People got excited about it and that is a step. Bands have to become more serious about why they are doing this. Do you really want to go somewhere or are you just going to clog up the oxygen for everyone else? "Fans".... computers are great, I love them to death but they are by no means the essential instrument for maintaining interest in music. The armchair fans who believe that simply buying cds from ADD, CDstreet is doing your part to support the scene is sadly mistaken. If you have kids.. play them the new Echo Image or BNI. Don't let them fall into the grasp of a Jimmy Eat World! For the single people out there, bring some friends out to a club like Satellite in LA or Downtime here in NYC, listen to some new tunes, get involved in the music.

It's just disheartening to see people who deep down care about this music to let it go and blame the failures on Electroclash. Like I said in the main forum, let DM, Erasure do their thing now, they made their mark. There's a whole new breed out ther waiting for listen, waiting for you to come see them play out(more of us play live than you might suspect!), we will make our own name in the bedrock of music history but we do want and encourage the people who care to help. If not, then we will still go on without you.

Did that sound like a Spielberg film or what...?




one last thing... frank, i disagree on one thing. the faint are da bomb! they are the one band i definitely see making a mark and shedding the electroclash tag. listen to blank wave arcade for proof of that and give danse macabre another chance.

[seraphim]

Vlad, thanks. I have thoughts on this and will of course add them to the forum as soon as I have time to sit down and make them "understandable". But I at least wanted to say thank you for what you said.